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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| what a way to get one's two minutes of fame |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Leavingkorea wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| I think it is a cheap way to go. |
Sure is. It saves lives. Makes dealing with such suspects much easier and safer. |
Are you seriously suggesting...? |
Relax. Take a deep breath. Have a whiskey or whatever it is that you do. Were posters here not recently bashing the Virginia Tech campus police for failing to intervene in a violent situation proactively and preemptively?
In any case, I took Captain Corea's criticisms to be general and not specific. He spoke in the simple present tense. I responded in the simple present tense.
Had nothing to do with this suspect's posing an alleged imminent, deadly threat. He did not. Just another howler-monkey. If he had, however, these officers would have responded with deadly force. Where on this thread have I suggested this, by the way?
Finally, I said this on this thread's second page...
| Gopher wrote: |
| ...if you want to find fault with the officers, fault them for intervening in the first place. Let Kerry deal with his own antagonists. No laws were broken at this point. |
So you and I would probably agree that the police should not have intervened. Once they did intervene, however, I would have advised this moron to go-with-the-flow and then complain later.
Their response matched his resistance. And that, generally, is what departmental training and policy permits and indeed instructs police officers to do.
And Captain Corea: you said you had "questions." Here is a first-hand recounting of the incident...
| Eunic Ortiz wrote: |
This is what I saw at the Kerry forum on Monday: Meyer, a 21-year-old telecommunications major, jumped up to the microphone already flanked by University Police.
He interrupted another student's question, and although Kerry had earlier said he was taking no more questions, he told Meyer he'd take his comments next. Kerry asked the police to allow Meyer to speak.
When it was his turn, Meyer first asked about the 2004 presidential election and followed with statements about whether President Bush should be impeached.
At that moment the microphone was turned off and police began to take Meyer out of the auditorium. Meyer then started to struggle with the officers.
As they pulled him toward the exit, Meyer broke free and tried to get away. At that point, six officers tackled Meyer to the ground and told him to roll over.
He continued to yell for help and a female officer warned Meyer if he did not stop he would be Tased. He kept yelling and one of the other officers gave the order to Tase him.
The audience remained seated and watching the confrontation until they heard the loud zap of the Taser. Then several people at the event started yelling at the officers...
Campus rumors now circulate that Meyer, known as being a prankster, was simply trying to be obnoxious and get attention at the Kerry speech...
Since the incident, Meyer has kept a low profile. |
CNN Reports
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Leavingkorea wrote:
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Are you seriously suggesting that this idiot, in a handcuffed state, with 5 cops sitting on him needed to be tasered because he was a threat to people's lives? Please tell me that it isn't so or perhaps you have him confused with this man.
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Unfortunately Leavingkorea, in the eyes of the law they are exactly the same. As mentioned in a prev. post the laws now basically encompass any simple act like this as terrorism, and you have simpletons like gopher and pikanese who claim that civil liberties are not being eroded. This is the perfect example of it. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
| ... and you have simpletons like gopher and pikanese who claim that civil liberties are not being eroded. |
Do you have any other way to make an argument besides creating strawmen or making up scenarios that are easy to refute and attributing them to other people? Seriously, I think you need a debate class, or maybe just some class. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Dome Vans wrote: |
| ... and you have simpletons like gopher and pikanese who claim that civil liberties are not being eroded. |
Do you have any other way to make an argument besides creating strawmen or making up scenarios that are easy to refute and attributing them to other people? Seriously, I think you need a debate class, or maybe just some class. |
Look at it this way. Dome Vans is incessantly, virulently, consistently anti-American. The fact that his debate style is so wanting is proof of something important. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Dome Vans wrote: |
| ... and you have simpletons like gopher and pikanese who claim that civil liberties are not being eroded. |
Do you have any other way to make an argument besides creating strawmen or making up scenarios that are easy to refute and attributing them to other people? Seriously, I think you need a debate class, or maybe just some class. |
If it was from anyone else less vainglorious than yourself Pikanese, then I might be bothered.
Your posts make me laugh, especially when I think that you're a grown man. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
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OMG !!! This is one of the terrorist thugs who tasered the guy?
Lucky he wasn't dynamited!  |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Finally, I said this on this thread's second page...
| Gopher wrote: |
| ...if you want to find fault with the officers, fault them for intervening in the first place. Let Kerry deal with his own antagonists. No laws were broken at this point. |
So you and I would probably agree that the police should not have intervened. Once they did intervene, however, I would have advised this moron to go-with-the-flow and then complain later.
Their response matched his resistance. And that, generally, is what departmental training and policy permits and indeed instructs police officers to do. |
I agree with you that I might question their involvement, but disagree that their response matched his. I'll ask this, who escalated this into a physical confrontation?
| Quote: |
And Captain Corea: you said you had "questions." Here is a first-hand recounting of the incident...
| Eunic Ortiz wrote: |
This is what I saw at the Kerry forum on Monday: Meyer, a 21-year-old telecommunications major, jumped up to the microphone already flanked by University Police.
He interrupted another student's question, and although Kerry had earlier said he was taking no more questions, he told Meyer he'd take his comments next. Kerry asked the police to allow Meyer to speak.
When it was his turn, Meyer first asked about the 2004 presidential election and followed with statements about whether President Bush should be impeached.
At that moment the microphone was turned off and police began to take Meyer out of the auditorium. Meyer then started to struggle with the officers.
As they pulled him toward the exit, Meyer broke free and tried to get away. At that point, six officers tackled Meyer to the ground and told him to roll over.
He continued to yell for help and a female officer warned Meyer if he did not stop he would be Tased. He kept yelling and one of the other officers gave the order to Tase him.
The audience remained seated and watching the confrontation until they heard the loud zap of the Taser. Then several people at the event started yelling at the officers...
Campus rumors now circulate that Meyer, known as being a prankster, was simply trying to be obnoxious and get attention at the Kerry speech...
Since the incident, Meyer has kept a low profile. |
CNN Reports |
Odd that you would put my "questions" in "quotations"... it gives a sense of disbelief - yet you've already stated that you understand that they were simply questions. 
Back to the point, my questions were directed in part at the "rules of the game" and that account does not really outline them. Only to say that the question period had come to an end, but that Kerry allowed some more.
Gopher, I'll ask you specific questions and you can answer if you want.
In your opinion or your experience...
-Is it acceptable to ask more than one question at such an event?
-Is it acceptable to ramble off a few questions without giving the presenter time to answer in between?
-Is it acceptable to grab someone to force them to leave (and I think you may have answered this already)?
-Is it acceptable to tazer someone who is already subdued/restrained?
-Is it acceptable to arrest someone but not state the charges of said arrest?
-Who escalated the situation and at what stages? |
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Dome Vans
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| Dome Vans wrote: |
| ... and you have simpletons like gopher and pikanese who claim that civil liberties are not being eroded. |
Do you have any other way to make an argument besides creating strawmen or making up scenarios that are easy to refute and attributing them to other people? Seriously, I think you need a debate class, or maybe just some class. |
Look at it this way. Dome Vans is incessantly, virulently, consistently anti-American. The fact that his debate style is so wanting is proof of something important. |
So me being slightly anti-america shows what problem exactly? You have a typically blinkered neo con POV, so where is the problem there? Your POV and my POV. You choose certain types of media to form and back up your opinion, I have mine. Why should anybody on this board maintain an ivory tower position over someone else? Who says what you think is more correct than what I think? It's all relative. Go figure.
Many of you here seem to have adapted many 'qualities' that your country would like you to have. Usually moving away from your home country makes you realise what is going wrong with it and how it could be improved. That's IF you are able to look at both sides of the story. Kuros, sorry but you don't seem to be able to. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
| Who says what you think is more correct than what I think? |
I'm not saying that at all, although I know you'd like to attribute that to me. In fact, I don't think anyone said that. What I'm saying is the way you argue is lackluster at best, and many a poor debater have used the same "strawman" techniques that you display.
It's as if you read something that you can't refute, so you pick something you can refute and decide that that is what you are going to say the other person said. It's really weak.
| Dome Vans wrote: |
| That's IF you are able to look at both sides of the story. Kuros, sorry but you don't seem to be able to. |
Hey, Kettle. The Pot called. He said, "You're black." |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| Dome Vans wrote: |
| ... and you have simpletons like gopher and pikanese who claim that civil liberties are not being eroded. |
Do you have any other way to make an argument besides creating strawmen or making up scenarios that are easy to refute and attributing them to other people? Seriously, I think you need a debate class, or maybe just some class. |
Look at it this way. Dome Vans is incessantly, virulently, consistently anti-American. The fact that his debate style is so wanting is proof of something important. |
So me being slightly anti-america shows what problem exactly? |
Nothing in itself. What is pertinent is that your posts are sloppy and rarely supported by evidence. And you are anti-American. In other words, anti-Americanism is sloppy and blind to facts.
| Quote: |
| You have a typically blinkered neo con POV, so where is the problem there? Your POV and my POV. |
I am not a neo-con. But I understand why you would think I am. See above.
| Quote: |
| You choose certain types of media to form and back up your opinion, I have mine. Why should anybody on this board maintain an ivory tower position over someone else? Who says what you think is more correct than what I think? It's all relative. |
I wouldn't say there is an absolute truth, but neither would I say everything is relative. The first option is too rigid but the second renders the goal of discourse meaningless.
[/quote]Many of you here seem to have adapted many 'qualities' that your country would like you to have. Usually moving away from your home country makes you realise what is going wrong with it and how it could be improved. That's IF you are able to look at both sides of the story. Kuros, sorry but you don't seem to be able to.[/quote]
I've posted a great deal about what is wrong with my country. Anyone who has been on this board long enough knows that about me. Again, your faculties of judgment are impaired, and prejudiced by the fact that I just insulted you. I would not have insulted you if I cared at all for your opinion.
Things are not so black and white. Some of America can be fooled all of the time, and all of America can be fooled some of the time, but not all of America can be fooled all of the time. I leave you to work out for yourself what that might mean. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Leavingkorea wrote: |
| He was being an ass but the taser was complete overkill. If 5 officers holding an unarmed handcuffed guy down on the ground is not enough restraint than those officers need to go turn in their badges tomorrow for being too incompetent to perform their job. Someone is going to lose their job over this and rightfully so. And they'll likely kick themselves for the rest of their lives for having lost it to an overreaction to an attention seeking idiot kid. |
The student was not asking questions to simply open up debate, he was doing it to attract attention. That is clearly what Meyer wanted. We are talking about a middle class college student who had no weapon, had 5 officers on him, so I don't think tasing him was necessary. Frankly, if I were the police department chief, I would reprimand them for that. That is excessive force in my opinion. I don't think they should be fired over it. The student deserved to be arrested, just not tased. He was an agent provocateur as I said earlier.
http://dir.salon.com/topics/john_kerry/ |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing in itself. What is pertinent is that your posts are sloppy and rarely supported by evidence. And you are anti-American. In other words, anti-Americanism is sloppy and blind to facts. |
Not Anti-american, sorry. Anti-America, this has been discussed on previous threads. You appear to show your ivory tower position here. Why am I blind to facts? So with the last sentence you are saying that the facts that America chooses to feed you, and the fact that you can quote this propaganda means that any argument that goes against this should be dismissed and open to derision. Look at this from both sides, don't claim that you can when you obviously don't.
Fact would suggest that civil liberties are being eroded in the States and in England. Propaganda would suggest otherwise. The ambigious nature of the Terrorist act in both of these countries is shown by this student being tasered and the pensioner being ejected from the Labour conference (re: prev post) it is done in the name of national security. Ergo that your country can flagrantly disregard laws and guidelines as and when it wants to, to suit their terms and objectives.
In the West, the goal posts are constantly being moved, people don't really know where they stand. Bush giving himself more presidential powers, is NOT democratic. Do the people give him these extra powers? No. He's doing it for national security, cutting out the check and balances governmental system that America prides it self on, and promoting his own agenda.
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When the New York Times revealed that George W. Bush had ordered the National Security Agency to wiretap the foreign calls of American citizens without seeking court permission, as is indisputably required by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), passed by Congress in 1978, he faced a decision. Would he deny the practice, or would he admit it? He admitted it. But instead of expressing regret, he took full ownership of the deed, stating that his order had been entirely justified, that he had in fact renewed it thirty times, that he would continue to renew it and--going even more boldly on the offensive--that those who had made his law-breaking known had committed a "shameful act." As justification, he offered two arguments, one derisory, the other deeply alarming. The derisory one was that Congress, by authorizing him to use force after September 11, had authorized him to suspend FISA, although that law is unmentioned in the resolution. Thus has Bush informed the members of a supposedly co-equal branch of government of what, unbeknownst to themselves, they were thinking when they cast their vote. The alarming argument is that as Commander in Chief he possesses "inherent" authority to suspend laws in wartime. But if he can suspend FISA at his whim and in secret, then what law can he not suspend? What need is there, for example, to pass or not pass the Patriot Act if any or all of its provisions can be secretly exceeded by the President?
Bush's choice marks a watershed in the evolution of his Administration. Previously when it was caught engaging in disgraceful, illegal or merely mistaken or incompetent behavior, he would simply deny it. "We have found the weapons of mass destruction!" "We do not torture!" However, further developments in the torture matter revealed a shift. Even as he denied the existence of torture, he and his officials began to defend his right to order it. His Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, refused at his confirmation hearings to state that the torture called waterboarding, in which someone is brought to the edge of drowning, was prohibited. Then when Senator John McCain sponsored a bill prohibiting cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners, Bush threatened to veto the legislation to which it was attached. It was only in the face of majority votes in both houses against such treatment that he retreated from his claim.
But in the wiretapping matter, he has so far exhibited no such vacillation. Secret law-breaking has been supplanted by brazen law-breaking. The difference is critical. If abuses of power are kept secret, there is still the possibility that, when exposed, they will be stopped. But if they are exposed and still permitted to continue, then every remedy has failed, and the abuse is permanently ratified. In this case, what will be ratified is a presidency that has risen above the law. |
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060109/schell
Kuros, do you think he's right to do this? Do you not feel threatened by it? Did you vote him in for this reason?
| Quote: |
| I would not have insulted you if I cared at all for your opinion. |
Insulting is your easy way out. Join the majority of other posters on this board. Climb down from your ivory tower.
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| Things are not so black and white. Some of America can be fooled all of the time, and all of America can be fooled some of the time, but not all of America can be fooled all of the time. I leave you to work out for yourself what that might mean. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it is kind of interesting that there are so many that complain about the patriot act in the US while they work in Korea who has a national security law that is far more strict. Not only that the same people denounce US foreign policy but they work in South Korea which would be owned by North Korea were it not for US foreign policy. Hating the US is just a fashion statement for them. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
In your opinion or your experience...
-Is it acceptable to ask more than one question at such an event?
-Is it acceptable to ramble off a few questions without giving the presenter time to answer in between?
-Is it acceptable to grab someone to force them to leave (and I think you may have answered this already)?
-Is it acceptable to tazer someone who is already subdued/restrained?
-Is it acceptable to arrest someone but not state the charges of said arrest?
-Who escalated the situation and at what stages? |
Captain Corea: you are continue to conflate issues and misrepresent what happened here. As far as why the police intervened, and why they intervened when they did, ask them. I would caution you not to think that you know all there is to know about this from youtube.com footage.
As far as where you are going with your question-devices, we disagree. You are intent on establishing the police are the only ones in the wrong here, as the only ones who contributed to and shaped this outcome. And nothing I can say will change your apologia for this begging-for-it suspect and your hostility towards the police/the Establishment.
Lo que sea. As I said, we disagree. I suggest we leave it at that. |
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