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Enlightenment fundamentalism 4or racism of the anti-racists?
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Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:57 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

The "right" of immigration is only a diversion from this.

Not so. Rather, it is central to the whole argument on this thread. For how else do Muslims gain entry into our countries?

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:29 am Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

The "right" of immigration is only a diversion from this.

Not so. Rather, it is central to the whole argument on this thread. For how else do Muslims gain entry into our countries?

The whole Islam debate is individual accountability versus guilt by association.

We can end a lot of arguments by resorting to what is a "right" and what isn't. But that doesn't make for a very enlightened discussion now, does it?

Drugs are not a right. End of discussion.
Access to health care is not a right. End of discussion.
Teaching English in a foreign country is not a right. End of discussion.
ad nauseum

Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:38 am Post subject:

So it's "enlightened" discussion (and , I take it, "enlightened" immigration policies) you're interested in promoting rather than curbing the disasterous effects brought about by same.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:47 am Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

So it's "enlightened" discussion (and , I take it, "enlightened" immigration policies) you're interested in promoting rather than curbing the disasterous effects brought about by same.

Oh please. You're just being obtuse now.

If you want to argue that immigration is not a "right," I won't disagree. If you actually want to discuss how and why immigration can and does work for the benefit of a Western country, then contribute something useful.

Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:57 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

And here I thought you were just exercising a foolish consistency . Don't know how I got that... from reading all your posts. Silly me.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:02 am Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

And here I thought you were just exercising a foolish consistency . Don't know how I got that... from reading all your posts. Silly me.

Put the sock away.

Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:12 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

And here I thought you were just exercising a foolish consistency . Don't know how I got that... from reading all your posts. Silly me.

Put the sock away.

OK OK we agree. If so, then why the hostility and insults? Upon which sacred cow of yours do I tread?

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:28 am Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

And here I thought you were just exercising a foolish consistency . Don't know how I got that... from reading all your posts. Silly me.

Put the sock away.

OK OK we agree. If so, then why the hostility and insults? Upon which sacred cow of yours do I tread?

That wasn't sarcasm? Okay.

My point is this: Do we only consider "rights" here and not discuss the relative merits of "privileges"?

And seriously. "You" have read all of my posts? And "you" have never responded before? I don't know whether to be honored or freaked out.

Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:41 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

And here I thought you were just exercising a foolish consistency . Don't know how I got that... from reading all your posts. Silly me.

Put the sock away.

OK OK we agree. If so, then why the hostility and insults? Upon which sacred cow of yours do I tread?

Here is my opinion in a nutshell:

1. No one has a "right" to enter another country.

2. Curbing and reversing Muslim immigration is a very wise thing to do.

And, no, I have not read all your posts. (That was mere hyperbole.) But from the tone and content of those I have read --- on this thread and a few others --- I get the impression you enjoy presenting yourself as some Rodin statue come to life.

By the way, what is this "You" business? You know, me being obtuse and all...

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:55 am Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

Here is my opinion in a nutshell:

1. No one has a "right" to enter another country.

Agreed. But mainly irrelevant. We allow immigration, so we should discuss who is allowed to immigrate and why.

Quote:

2. Curbing and reversing Muslim immigration is a very wise thing to do.

Disagree. Be selective, but religion shouldn't be a litmus test.

Quote:

And, no, I have not read all your posts. (That was mere hyperbole.) But from the tone and content of those I have read --- on this thread and a few others --- I get the impression you enjoy presenting yourself as some Rodin statue come to life.

Why thank you. I've always loved the Gates of Hell. At least ever since I was in high school. Few people realize The Thinker is from a much larger sculpture.

Quote:

By the way, what is this "You" business? You know, me being obtuse and all...

You're position mirrors BJWD's. So you're either his sock or his lap dog.

HTH. HAND.

merkurix

Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:06 am Post subject:

beck's wrote:

Western nations must strictly cut off all immigration from cultural groups who cannot or will not respect our fundemental values. Furthermore, immigrants who are already in the west and who show that they cannot or will not accept our values must be deported. We must do this to protect our values and way of life. Not to do so is to commit cultural suicide.

If one applies this formula, then the only immigrants allowed into the U.S. would be first priority, whites from the English speaking Anglosphere, and second white Western Europeans. To everyone else, the country is closed.

What is it you mean exactly by "our values" I am curious. Are you identifying yourself as a member who subscribes to the dominant white European cultural ideology that is currently in place in countries like the U.S.? I have values too . . . multi-ethnic values that are not necessarily all compatible with this dominant Eurocentric ideology that pervades a majority of those who have political and socioeconomic power in the U.S. Yes, assimilating to the dominant European cultural ideology is the way to attain cultural capital. But it is very hard for those who don't physically fit this bill, it is not given to them. So the response is simple.

Do what the Indians did in India when the British were in power.

Do what the Mexicans are doing now.

Form a majority and change the culture. I am not calling this cultural suicide. Only a hardcore assimilationist would call it such. I like the Canadian model of mosaic, or integrationism. Cultural upheaval is a normal part of cultural evolution. The Romans didn't last forever. Neither did the Native Americans, or the Mexicans who were displaced or phased out with Manifest Destiny. And everything is fine, now isn't it? If it happens in America, it should be accepted as a normal part of change.

Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:24 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

Here is my opinion in a nutshell:

1. No one has a "right" to enter another country.

Agreed. But mainly irrelevant. We allow immigration, so we should discuss who is allowed to immigrate and why.

Quote:

2. Curbing and reversing Muslim immigration is a very wise thing to do.

Disagree. Be selective, but religion shouldn't be a litmus test.

Quote:

Why thank you. I've always loved the Gates of Hell. At least ever since I was in high school. Few people realize The Thinker is from a much larger sculpture.

Quote:

By the way, what is this "You" business? You know, me being obtuse and all...

You're position mirrors BJWD's. So you're either his sock or his lap dog.

HTH. HAND.

Actually, I like to think of myself as Gopher's sock. You thought so for a moment yourself, didn't you? But then you retracted it. Yeah I saw it. No, I do not flatter myself that I possess the same intellectual stamina as he. But I am flattered that you believed it so.
However, I do agree with Gopher, and --- for what it's worth --- BJWD.

Denigrating one poster simply for sharing the thoughts and opinions of another is a poor debating tactic (ad hominem). That is another thing I have noticed from a few of your posts.

You are simply going to have to accept that there are many more of us here who disagree with you than pleases you. Throwing 'sock' and 'lapdog' around... Grow up. Just do that. You need to do that.

Speaking of lap dogs. Whose lap dog are you? You must be somebody's. Or are all your thoughts and opinions "original"?

Anyway, thanks for the art lesson. I didn't know that about the statue.

Last edited by Leslie Cheswyck on Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:41 am Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

The Chile reference led me to Gopher. But I figured he wouldn't be that obvious. Maybe you're Gopher. Maybe you're just BJWD trying to throw us off. Otherwise, why haven't you been involved in this discussion with me before? Very curious.

Quote:

However, I do agree with Gopher, and --- for what it's worth --- BJWD.

I don't recall "Gopher" making his feelings on Islam known.

Quote:

Denigrating one poster who shares the thoughts and opinions of another is a poor debating tactic. That is another thing I have noticed from a few of your posts.

"A few". Out of 2000. You're sounding more and more like BJWD.

Quote:

You are simply going to have to accept that there are many more of us here who disagree with you than pleases you.

I wouldn't be here if people didn't disagree. There are very few, if any, posters that I'll agree with more than 2/3rds of the time.

Quote:

Throwing 'sock' and 'lapdog' around... Grow up. Just do that. You need to do that.

Sock.

Quote:

Speaking of lap dogs. Whose lap dog are you? You must be somebody's. Or are all your thoughts and opinions "original"?

Nothing is original. I never claimed to be original. But who else on this board do I mimic? I believe everyone else who agrees with me has tired of the endless pedantics.

Quote:

Thanks for the art lesson, by the way. I didn't know that about the statue.

There are several copies floating around. I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I believe there's a copy at the Rodin Museum in Paris. And one at the Musee d'Orsay.

Okay, I looked it up now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gates_of_Hell

Quote:

The plaster original was restored in 1917 and is displayed at the Mus�e d'Orsay in Paris. A series of plaster casts illustrating the development of the work is on view at the Mus�e Rodin in Meudon. Also in 1917, a model was used to make the original three bronze casts:

* The Mus�e Rodin, Paris:
* The Rodin Museum, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
* The National Museum of Western Art[1] in Ueno Park, Tokyo.

Subsequent bronzes have been distributed by the Mus�e Rodin to a number of locations, including:

* The Kunsthaus Z�rich, Zurich
* The B. Gerald Cantor Rodin Sculpture Garden at Stanford University
* The Rodin Gallery, Seoul, Korea

OMG!! There's a Rodin Gallery in Seoul. I've seen the two in Paris. I think I've seen the one in Tokyo. I must go see the one in Seoul.

Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:11 am Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

Quote:

Speaking of lap dogs. Whose lap dog are you? You must be somebody's. Or are all your thoughts and opinions "original"?

Nothing is original. I never claimed to be original. But who else on this board do I mimic? I believe everyone else who agrees with me has tired of the endless pedantics.

Again, hyperbole on my part. I do not believe you are a sock. I know socks abound, but I'm more inclined to accept that there are many posters who share similar views. If my viewpoint approaches mimicry, well, that happens sometimes, too. In fact that is one reason you have seen so little of Leslie re Islam lately. So many others --- BJWD, bigverne, etc. --- picking up the cudgels. Other than that I'm not going to spend time trying to disprove your sock accusation, as it amounts to so much red herring. Shame on you!

As for Gopher, he has made one or two oblique references vis a vis Islam with which I may agree, IIRC. But certainly nothing as inflammatory as BJWD or I would say.

Your Chile reference had me for a second there, since I made no reference to it on this thread. Location: Yes, the geographical absurdity.

beck's

Joined: 02 Aug 2006

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:

Murkurix's assertion that I would only accept white western Europeans as immigrants is not accurate. I really doesn't matter what race a person is as long as they accept fundemental western values. These include valuing the evidence of the senses and reason exclusively as one's only tools of cognition, science, indivdual rights to life, liberty, and private property, a political system of more than one political party, and a capitalist economic system. Furthermore, they include a belief in gender equality, democratic rights and pluralism. When Muslim groups decide to embrace Western Values then they will remove themselves from my condemnation. Until then, I believe that Islamists who condemn reason, individual rights, private property and other western values should not be welcome in any western nation. To admit them or to allow them to stay is a form of cultural suicide.

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