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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: Kyl-Lieberman = war declaration |
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Kyl-Lieberman War
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Did you hear about the War on Iran Authorization bill the Senate is going to vote on perhaps as early as today? No, that's not how it's getting billed. But that's what the 'Kyl-Lieberman' amendment is. In fact, the supporters of going to war against Iran are using exactly same strategy with this amendment that they did to lay the ground work for the Iraq War.
We give you the rundown in today's episode of TPMtv ... |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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People who want war will lie to get it. They did so they could invade Iraq, they are now so they can invade/attack Iran.
But, hey, conspiracies don't exist...
'Wiped off the Map' � The Rumor of the Century
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Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made...
So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:
"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."
That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).
So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."
The Proof:
The full quote translated directly to English:
"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."
Word by word translation:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).
Here is the full transcript of the speech in Farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad's web site... |
Much more... |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." |
that otoh is such a peaceful phrase. Ive got a better idea, Iran must vanish from the page of time. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
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| "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time." |
that otoh is such a peaceful phrase. Ive got a better idea, Iran must vanish from the page of time. |
The point is that the difference in rhetoric is important. There is a very large difference between saying a regime should be gone vs. saying a nation should be gone. I don't support his contention, per se, simply because I have never followed the Israeli issue closely enough to have an opinion. I have followed it closely enough to know they have engaged in many illegal acts and have committed war crimes. But the same can be said of the other side. In the end, my limited attention to this issue leads me to this preliminary conclusion: both are raging idiots.
That does not give people the right to use a lie to sell a war. The amendment discussed in the OP is worded as a de facto declaration of war. It OKs the broad use of force vs. any element they choose to characterize as Iranian or Iranian-backed.
This is a foolish and precipitous declaration to make at this point in time and can only be seen as setting up justification for a planned attack. We have seen where this led with Iraq. How can people be so utterly stupid?
Last edited by keane on Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| And guess what he supports to replace the current "regime". I bet it isnt a JEWISH one. The guy is a terrorist. What kind of regime do you think he supports? He's already shown his attitude to jews by denying the holocaust, spewing his hate filled invectives about evil zionists. I think Israel should stay. Its iran that needs to disappear from the pages of time. |
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thiophene
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jews and zionist are two different groups. one can be against zionist and not against jews. fyi iran has a large jewish community (large enough for iran haters to be surprised by) who aren't prosecuted or tortured by the government for being who they are. i'd think if the government really hated jews they'd start by getting rid of them within their borders and not wage a war many kms away. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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In May, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was arrested and later hanged in prison. His crime was never declared in public and any legal proceedings |
http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/mideast/iran.html
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Human Rights Watch reported the death in May 1998 of Jewish businessman. Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh, who was hanged in prison without a public charge or. legal proceeding. Reports indicate that Kakhodah-Zadeh may have been killed for assisting jews to emigrate. |
http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/107/74066f.pdf
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Iran's Jewish population has dwindled from about 80,000 at the time of the 1979 Islamic revolution but remains the largest of any country in the Middle East apart from Israel. Jews have lived in Iran since at least 700BC.
Hostility between Iran's government and Israel means Iranian Jews are often subject to official mistrust and scrutiny. |
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Four years later, the regime did its best to instate policies and practices hostile to religious minorities. Water fountains and toilets at my high school were segregated, some marked with signs that read �For Muslims Only.� But by and large, Iranians were not receptive to such bigotry. We crisscrossed among the stalls until the signs became meaningless. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/02/opinion/02hakakian.html?ex=1184558400&en=aae4ab19b4dec726&ei=5070
Iran also blew up the Jewish community center not in Israel but in Argentina.
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Islamic judges in Iran have set the precedent that the rape of a Mandaean woman can be regarded as an act of 'purification,' and as such, violators receive impunity. In Iran this defence has been used to acquit men of rapes on Mandaean girls as young as 8 years old (ibid.). |
http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/print?tbl=RSDCOI&id=41501c2123
so what do you have to say? |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Webb: Lieberman And Kyl�s Hawkish Iran Amendment Is �Cheney�s Fondest Pipe Dream�
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On the Senate floor today, Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA) made an impassioned appeal to his fellow senators, declaring that the Lieberman-Kyl amendment on Iran should be �withdrawn� because the �proposal is Dick Cheney�s fondest pipe dream.� Webb cautioned that the �cleverly-worded sense of the Congress� could be �interpreted� to �declare war� on Iran. He continued:
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| Those who regret their vote five years ago to authorize military action in Iraq should think hard before supporting this approach. Because, in my view, it has the same potential to do harm where many are seeking to do good. |
�At best, it�s a deliberate attempt to divert attention from a failed diplomatic policy,� said Webb. �At worst, it could be read as a backdoor method of gaining Congressional validation for military action, without one hearing and without serious debate.�
Webb said that amendment�s attempt to categorize the Iran�s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corp as �a foreign terrorist organization� would, for all practical purposes, �mandate� the military option against Iran. �It could be read as tantamount to a declaration of war. What do we do with terrorist organizations? If they are involved against us, we attack them.�
He also slammed the lack of debate and examination that was accompanying the amendment, saying �this is not the way to make foreign policy�:
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| We haven�t had one hearing on this. I�m on the Foreign Relations Committee, I�m on the Armed Services Committee. We are about to vote on something that may fundamentally change the way the United States views the Iranian military and we haven�t had one hearing. This is not the way to make foreign policy. It�s not the way to declare war. |
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I could not agree more. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
People who want war will lie to get it. They did so they could invade Iraq, they are now so they can invade/attack Iran.
But, hey, conspiracies don't exist...
'Wiped off the Map' � The Rumor of the Century
| Quote: |
Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made...
So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:
"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."
That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).
So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."
The Proof:
The full quote translated directly to English:
"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."
Word by word translation:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).
Here is the full transcript of the speech in Farsi, archived on Ahmadinejad's web site... |
Much more... |
It is not just a rumor.
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fighting words
The Cole Report
When it comes to Iran, he distorts, you decide.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, May 2, 2006, at 4:26 PM ET
In some ways, the continuing row over his call for the complete destruction of Israel must baffle Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. All he did, after all, was to turn up at a routine anti-Zionist event and repeat the standard line�laid down by the Ayatollah Khomeini and thus considered by some to be beyond repeal�that the state of Israel is illegitimate and must be obliterated. There's nothing new in that. In the early '90s, I can remember seeing, in the areas around Baalbek in Lebanon that were dominated by Hezbollah and Amal, large posters of the by-then-late Khomeini embellished (in English) with the slogan, "Israel Must Be Completely Destroyed!" And I have twice been to Friday prayers in Tehran itself, addressed by leading mullahs and by former President Rafsanjani, where the more terse version (Marg bar Esrail�"Death to Israel") is chanted as a matter of routine; sometimes as an applause line to an especially deft clerical thrust.
No, what worries me more about Ahmadinejad is his devout belief in the return of the "occulted" or 12th imam and his related belief that, when he himself spoke recently at the United Nations, the whole scene was suffused with a sublime green light that held all his audience in a state of suspended animation. This uncultured jerk is, of course, only a puppet figure with no real power, but this choice of puppet by the theocracy is unsettling in itself. So is Iran's complete lack of embarrassment at being caught, time and again, with nuclear enrichment facilities that have never been declared to the inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency.
However, words and details and nuances do matter in all this, so I was not surprised to see professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan denying that Ahmadinejad, or indeed Khomeini, had ever made this call for the removal of Israel from the map. Cole is a minor nuisance on the fringes of the academic Muslim apologist community. At one point, there was a danger that he would become a go-to person for quotes in New York Times articles (a sort of Shiite fellow-traveling version of Norman Ornstein, if such an alarming phenomenon can be imagined), but this crisis appears to have passed.
Cole continues to present himself as an expert on Shiism and on the Persian, Arabic, and Urdu tongues. Let us see how his claim vindicates itself in practice. Here is what he wrote on the "Gulf 2000" e-mail chat-list on April 22:
It bears repeating as long as the accusation is made. Ahmadinejad did not "threaten" to "wipe Israel off the map." I'm not sure there is even such an idiom in Persian. He quoted Khomeini to the effect that "the Occupation regime must end" (ehtelal bayad az bayn berad). And, no, it is not the same thing. It is about what sort of regime people live under, not whether they exist at all. Ariel Sharon, after all, made the Occupation regime in Gaza end.
There are two separate but related matters here. For a start, let us look at the now-famous speech that Ahmadinejad actually gave at the Interior Ministry on Oct. 26, 2005. (I am using the translation made by Nazila Fathi of the New York Times Tehran bureau, whose Persian is probably the equal of Professor Cole's.) The relevant portions read:
Our dear Imam [Khomeini] said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. � Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. � For over fifty years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime, and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it.
Ahmadinejad then denounced the recent Israeli-Palestinian negotiations over Gaza as a sellout and added, "If we get through this brief period successfully, the path of eliminating the occupying regime will be easy and down-hill."
Not even Professor Cole will dispute that, in the above passages, the term "occupying regime" means Israel and the term "world oppressor" stands for the United States. (The title of the conference, incidentally, was The World Without Zionism.) In fact, Khomeini's injunctions are referred to twice. Quite possibly, "wiped off the map" is slightly too free a translation of what he originally said, and what it is mandatory for his followers to repeat. So, I give it below, in Persian and in English, and let you be the judge:
Esrail ghiyam-e mossalahaane bar zed-e mamaalek-e eslami nemoodeh ast va bar doval va mamaalek-eeslami ghal-o-gham aan lazem ast.
My source here is none other than a volume published by the Institute for Imam Khomeini. Here is the translation:
Israel has declared armed struggle against Islamic countries and its destruction is a must for all governments and nations of Islam.
This is especially important, and is also the reason for the wide currency given to the statement: It is making something into a matter of religious duty. The term "ghal-o-gham" is an extremely strong and unambivalent one, of which a close equivalent rendering would be "annihilate."
Professor Cole has completely missed or omitted the first reference in last October's speech, skipped to the second one, and flatly misunderstood the third. (The fourth one, about "eliminating the occupying regime," I would say speaks for itself.) He evidently thinks that by "occupation," Khomeini and Ahmadinejad were referring to the Israeli seizure of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. But if this were true, it would not have been going on for "more than fifty years" now, would it? The 50th anniversary of 1967 falls in 2017, which is a while off. What could be clearer than that "occupation regime" is a direct reference to Israel itself?
One might have thought that, if the map-wiping charge were to have been inaccurate or unfair, Ahmadinejad would have denied it. But he presumably knew what he had said and had meant to say. In any case, he has an apologist to do what he does not choose to do for himself. But this apologist, who affects such expertise in Persian, cannot decipher the plain meaning of a celebrated statement and is, furthermore, in need of a remedial course in English.
Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2140947/
Copyright 2007 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive Co. LLC |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| I think Israel should stay. Its iran that needs to disappear from the pages of time. |
Keep repeating the lie. Regime does not = nation.
And we note, again, your extreme hypocrisy and violent intent. It's OK for you to call for the end of a nation, but it's not OK for him to?
NOTE: The US has had military operations active in Iran since at least 2005. How is this justified but Iranian interference in Iraq is not? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
And we note, again ... |
speaking in the 3rd person? How many of you are there? Do you mean you and the other socks you have on here? Are your socks now developing an identity of their own?
How about keane disappears from this forum? Ill modify my bet. Accept and if you lose you disappear from Daves. But just as keane, your other socks may stay. If I lose I will go. So the bet is: If Bush stays on past January of 2008 one of us will be gone. Yes? Are you too chicken to accept? |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
People who want war will lie to get it. They did so they could invade Iraq, they are now so they can invade/attack Iran.
But, hey, conspiracies don't exist...
'Wiped off the Map' � The Rumor of the Century
| Quote: |
Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's president has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map." Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made...
"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."
Word by word translation:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from). |
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It is not just a rumor.
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Esrail ghiyam-e mossalahaane bar zed-e mamaalek-e eslami nemoodeh ast va bar doval va mamaalek-eeslami ghal-o-gham aan lazem ast.
My source here is none other than a volume published by the Institute for Imam Khomeini. Here is the translation:
Israel has declared armed struggle against Islamic countries and its destruction is a must for all governments and nations of Islam.
This is especially important, and is also the reason for the wide currency given to the statement: It is making something into a matter of religious duty. |
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Let me state clearly: Adheminejad, or whatever his name is, is not the Khomeini, is he? You may argue all you want about the Khomeini. I have not addressed it. What is important is what the president said. That is the quote being discussed. Don't change the subject. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Our dear Imam [Khomeini] said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. � Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. � For over fifty years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime, and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it. |
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The fourth one, about "eliminating the occupying regime," I would say speaks for itself.) He evidently thinks that by "occupation," Khomeini and Ahmadinejad were referring to the Israeli seizure of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. But if this were true, it would not have been going on for "more than fifty years" now, would it? The 50th anniversary of 1967 falls in 2017, which is a while off. What could be clearer than that "occupation regime" is a direct reference to Israel itself?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Shipment of high explosives intercepted in Iraq
Most sophisticated of roadside bombs reportedly coming from Iran
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8829929/
9/11 Commission Finds Ties Between al-Qaeda and Iran
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| Senior U.S. officials have told TIME that the 9/11 Commission's report will cite evidence suggesting that the 9/11 hijackers had previously passed through Iran |
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,664967,00.html
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The American military said Tuesday that it had credible evidence linking Iranians and their Iraqi associates, detained here in raids last week, to criminal activities, including attacks against American forces. Evidence also emerged that some detainees had been involved in shipments of weapons to illegal armed groups in Iraq. |
http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F0061EF635550C748EDDAB0994DE404482
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On June 25, 1996, Iran again attacked America at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, exploding a huge truck bomb that devastated Khobar Towers and murdered 19 U.S. airmen as they rested in their dormitory. These young heroes spent every day risking their lives enforcing the no-fly zone over southern Iraq; that is, protecting Iraqi Shiites from their own murderous tyrant. When I visited this horrific scene soon after the attack, I watched dozens of dedicated FBI agents combing through the wreckage in 120-degree heat, reverently handling the human remains of our brave young men. More than 400 of our Air Force men and women were wounded in this well-planned attack, and I was humbled by their courage and spirit. I later met with the families of our lost Khobar heroes and promised that we would do whatever was necessary to bring these terrorists to American justice. The courage and dignity these wonderful families have consistently exemplified has been one of the most powerful experiences of my 26 years of public service. |
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003518
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Iran responsible for 1983 Marine barracks bombing, judge rules |
Friday, May 30, 2003 Posted: 11:14 PM EDT (0314 GMT)
Marines search through the rubble for their missing comrades after the 1983 barracks bombing in Beirut, Lebanon.
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Iran is responsible for the 1983 suicide bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen, a U.S. District Court judge ruled Friday. |
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/
Amir Taheri: Khomeinists hammering new strategy to oust 'Great Satan'
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But at almost exactly the same time, militants from some 40 countries spread across the globe were trekking to Tehran for a 10-day "revolutionary jamboree" in which "a new strategy to confront the American Great Satan" will be hammered out. The event is scheduled to start on February 1 to mark the 25th anniversary of the return to Iran from exile of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the "Islamic Revolution".
It is not clear how many militants will attend, but the official media promise a massive turnout to underline the Islamic Republic's position as the "throbbing heart of world resistance to American arrogance."
The guest list reads like a who-is-who of global terror.
In fact, most of the organisations attending the event, labelled "Ten-Days of Dawn", are branded by the US and some European Union members as terrorist outfits. For more than two decades, Tehran has been a magnet for militant groups from many different national and ideological backgrounds.
The Islamic Republic's hospitality cuts across even religious divides. Militant Sunni organisations, including two linked to Al Qaida, Ansar al-Islam (Companions of Islam) and Hizb Islami (The Islamic Party), enjoy Iranian hospitality.
They are joined by Latin American guerrilla outfits, clandestine Irish organisations, Basque and Corsican separatists, and a variety of leftist groups from Spartacists to Trotskyites and Guevarists. Tehran is the only capital where all the Palestinian militant movements have offices and, in some cases, training and financial facilities. |
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/04/01/28/109235.html
U.S.: Top Iran officials ordering bombs to Iraq
Orders to send armor-piercing bombs came from highest levels, official says
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17097658/ |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Lieberman should just join the Republicans already. |
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