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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm torn. I'm torn.
Being a Jew raised Catholic, I've got a lot of programming to overcome. |
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kentucker4
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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So...what percentage of hookers in S Korea have AIDS? That's the only reason I wouldn't do it. Although, after a night out drinking ya never know.  |
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unknown9398
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Location: Yeongcheon, S. Korea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| unknown9398 wrote: |
| That's a common misperception propagated by people who are offended by and would like to abolish the sex industry. |
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2005/46606.htm
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| In last year�s Report, we used U.S. Government data that disaggregated transnational trafficking in persons by age and gender for the first time. These data showed that, of the estimated 600,000 to 800,000 men, women, and children trafficked across international borders each year, approximately 80 percent are women and girls and up to 50 percent are minors. The data also illustrate that the majority of transnational victims are trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation. |
This is just one report. You can find many others that support it. If the sex trade was government run and open like the bordello in Arizona, then you guys would have an argument because you'd have some evidence of volunteers to point to.
But it's not. It's run by slavers. You are supporting the slave trade when you visit Hooker Hill. |
I don't deny the information in the report, but I do dispute your interpretation of it. It's one thing to report that "the majority of transnational victims are trafficked..." and quite another to make the leap to the idea that most prostitutes are transnational. You're just not proving your point. Tell me who the slavers are that force women into prostitution in Itaewon. |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
I swear to god, all this talk about Korean men being mongers and all, I would say that 90% of the white guys I know/have known in Korea go/went to hookers, too.
And I see nothing wrong with it at all, except that it is too pricey in Korea as opposed to S-E Asia, and the service in general isn't as good. |
To say there is nothing wrong with it is just self-denial. The fact is that the women who are not trafficked are being exploited due to economic necessity. It is NOT out of choice. Coal miners went down the pits from 10 years old because it paid...but that is different from exercising choice in the matter...
...most of the money spent will in some way be used in other forms of criminal activity, which will involve other forms of exploitation and will have links with international drugs and people trafficking, and eventual links with international terrorism and the CIA.
To say that there is nothing wrong with it is either extreme ignorance or denial. |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
I swear to god, all this talk about Korean men being mongers and all, I would say that 90% of the white guys I know/have known in Korea go/went to hookers, too.
And I see nothing wrong with it at all, except that it is too pricey in Korea as opposed to S-E Asia, and the service in general isn't as good. |
To say there is nothing wrong with it is just self-denial. The fact is that the women who are not trafficked are being exploited due to economic necessity. It is NOT out of choice. Coal miners went down the pits from 10 years old because it paid...but that is different from exercising choice in the matter...
...most of the money spent will in some way be used in other forms of criminal activity, which will involve other forms of exploitation and will have links with international drugs and people trafficking, and eventual links with international terrorism and the CIA.
To say that there is nothing wrong with it is either extreme ignorance or denial. |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
This is a perfect example of the kind of thinking that has led to the majority of the world's problems throughout history. You might have a case for that link in certain cases but not all the time. And certainly not the majority of the time. Start taking a look at all the websites out there that fight for the rights of sex workers. The women in those groups, who are the ones providing the services, aren't saying they are being forced into their jobs nor are they claiming to be slaves. They are saying that they are choosing to do this for the same reason that you choose to go to your school/hagwon every day: to make a living. Take a look at the things STELLA is fighting for around the world before making these kinds of ignorant statements.
Oh, and by the way, although I trust that the statistics were probably true in TWG's statement they were absolutely and unequivocably altered to support the conservative viewpoint that the American government has with regards to prostitution and sex workers around the world. "We, the great and all powerful government of the USA, have decided that prostitution is bad. Ergo, it is bad." Sorry, doesn't work that way. The government under Bush has taken a number of steps backwards in their fight against HIV and the spread of STDs around the world by linking Christian dogma into their support of sex education clinics. People who desperately need condoms and contraceptives in Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Uganda and other African nations have been forced to lie and tell the US government that they are teaching abstinence rather than safe-sex because that's the only way they can get access to the funds they need to help those who are in danger of dying.
Please, oh please, oh please Woden and TWG get off your GOP bandwagon and begin to take a look at the actual conditions and situations upon which you pass such laughably "moral" judgements.  |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and please check out this link. It offers a good denouncement of your position as well.
http://www.montrealmirror.com/2007/092707/sasha.html
Yes, it's a sex column in a free weekly newspaper. No, she's not a statistician but the viewpoint she offers is relevant here because 1) she has worked in the industry herself and 2) the viewpoints she brings up come directly from those you called slaves and victims, the ones who are actually doing the work. Give it a read. |
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sjrm
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
I'm torn. I'm torn.
Being a Jew raised Catholic, I've got a lot of programming to overcome. |
i feel ya. i'm jewish with quite a few catholic friends |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| The problems with the prostitution is that it is by and large not a voluntary choice for the women... more typically young girls... involved. |
Maybe in some places and among foreign sex workers in Korea but I don't believe that the Korean sex workers in Korea have been forced into being prostitutes. |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| But it's not. It's run by slavers. You are supporting the slave trade when you visit Hooker Hill. |
Hardly the truth since at least one place if not more is owned by women who used to be hookers. According to one article that was printed in the Korean Times or Korean Herald, the one was owned by a woman working there. She had one worker who worked with her. |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Dysupes wrote: |
| Woden wrote: |
| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
I swear to god, all this talk about Korean men being mongers and all, I would say that 90% of the white guys I know/have known in Korea go/went to hookers, too.
And I see nothing wrong with it at all, except that it is too pricey in Korea as opposed to S-E Asia, and the service in general isn't as good. |
To say there is nothing wrong with it is just self-denial. The fact is that the women who are not trafficked are being exploited due to economic necessity. It is NOT out of choice. Coal miners went down the pits from 10 years old because it paid...but that is different from exercising choice in the matter...
...most of the money spent will in some way be used in other forms of criminal activity, which will involve other forms of exploitation and will have links with international drugs and people trafficking, and eventual links with international terrorism and the CIA.
To say that there is nothing wrong with it is either extreme ignorance or denial. |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
This is a perfect example of the kind of thinking that has led to the majority of the world's problems throughout history. You might have a case for that link in certain cases but not all the time. And certainly not the majority of the time. Start taking a look at all the websites out there that fight for the rights of sex workers. The women in those groups, who are the ones providing the services, aren't saying they are being forced into their jobs nor are they claiming to be slaves. They are saying that they are choosing to do this for the same reason that you choose to go to your school/hagwon every day: to make a living. Take a look at the things STELLA is fighting for around the world before making these kinds of ignorant statements.
Oh, and by the way, although I trust that the statistics were probably true in TWG's statement they were absolutely and unequivocably altered to support the conservative viewpoint that the American government has with regards to prostitution and sex workers around the world. "We, the great and all powerful government of the USA, have decided that prostitution is bad. Ergo, it is bad." Sorry, doesn't work that way. The government under Bush has taken a number of steps backwards in their fight against HIV and the spread of STDs around the world by linking Christian dogma into their support of sex education clinics. People who desperately need condoms and contraceptives in Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Uganda and other African nations have been forced to lie and tell the US government that they are teaching abstinence rather than safe-sex because that's the only way they can get access to the funds they need to help those who are in danger of dying.
Please, oh please, oh please Woden and TWG get off your GOP bandwagon and begin to take a look at the actual conditions and situations upon which you pass such laughably "moral" judgements. |
I will repeat that although it may seem to be a profession of choice, it is an imposition of choice, so not truly free. You can always find examples of women who have entered the profession and are happy in it, but these are an extreme minority.
I am from the UK...prostitution there is a highly organised criminal activity. Immigrants from around the world pay people traffickers to grant them passage to the UK and then on arrival are told they owe money and need to pay it off...thus the slavery starts. This isn't in all cases, in others it is an addiction to drugs which sends women on to the streets, or it is an pimp. The fact that these examples are demonstrably true exposes the lie written early that there is nothing wrong with prostitution...
...the fact people around the world fight for the rights of sex workers is a good thing, but doesn't in any way vindicate your position on the trade. You can find examples of a rosy picture of prostitution, but if you are going to herald them above the stories of misery and slavery, then I would have to say your mind has been conditioned and you are weak willed... |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
| Dysupes wrote: |
| Woden wrote: |
| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
I swear to god, all this talk about Korean men being mongers and all, I would say that 90% of the white guys I know/have known in Korea go/went to hookers, too.
And I see nothing wrong with it at all, except that it is too pricey in Korea as opposed to S-E Asia, and the service in general isn't as good. |
To say there is nothing wrong with it is just self-denial. The fact is that the women who are not trafficked are being exploited due to economic necessity. It is NOT out of choice. Coal miners went down the pits from 10 years old because it paid...but that is different from exercising choice in the matter...
...most of the money spent will in some way be used in other forms of criminal activity, which will involve other forms of exploitation and will have links with international drugs and people trafficking, and eventual links with international terrorism and the CIA.
To say that there is nothing wrong with it is either extreme ignorance or denial. |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
This is a perfect example of the kind of thinking that has led to the majority of the world's problems throughout history. You might have a case for that link in certain cases but not all the time. And certainly not the majority of the time. Start taking a look at all the websites out there that fight for the rights of sex workers. The women in those groups, who are the ones providing the services, aren't saying they are being forced into their jobs nor are they claiming to be slaves. They are saying that they are choosing to do this for the same reason that you choose to go to your school/hagwon every day: to make a living. Take a look at the things STELLA is fighting for around the world before making these kinds of ignorant statements.
Oh, and by the way, although I trust that the statistics were probably true in TWG's statement they were absolutely and unequivocably altered to support the conservative viewpoint that the American government has with regards to prostitution and sex workers around the world. "We, the great and all powerful government of the USA, have decided that prostitution is bad. Ergo, it is bad." Sorry, doesn't work that way. The government under Bush has taken a number of steps backwards in their fight against HIV and the spread of STDs around the world by linking Christian dogma into their support of sex education clinics. People who desperately need condoms and contraceptives in Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Uganda and other African nations have been forced to lie and tell the US government that they are teaching abstinence rather than safe-sex because that's the only way they can get access to the funds they need to help those who are in danger of dying.
Please, oh please, oh please Woden and TWG get off your GOP bandwagon and begin to take a look at the actual conditions and situations upon which you pass such laughably "moral" judgements. |
I will repeat that although it may seem to be a profession of choice, it is an imposition of choice, so not truly free. You can always find examples of women who have entered the profession and are happy in it, but these are an extreme minority.
I am from the UK...prostitution there is a highly organised criminal activity. Immigrants from around the world pay people traffickers to grant them passage to the UK and then on arrival are told they owe money and need to pay it off...thus the slavery starts. This isn't in all cases, in others it is an addiction to drugs which sends women on to the streets, or it is an pimp. The fact that these examples are demonstrably true exposes the lie written early that there is nothing wrong with prostitution...
...the fact people around the world fight for the rights of sex workers is a good thing, but doesn't in any way vindicate your position on the trade. You can find examples of a rosy picture of prostitution, but if you are going to herald them above the stories of misery and slavery, then I would have to say your mind has been conditioned and you are weak willed... |
Ok, so here's where I'm having trouble with your thinking. Sex trafficking happens. Yes, ok, it does. Prostitution happens. Yes, ok, it does too. So therefore the majority of prostitutes must be part of the slavery system of human sex trafficking. Ummm, no. It's not painting a rosy picture of prostitution to say that the majority of people who are prostitutes around the world are doing it as a job in the same way you work as a teacher. It's a chosen profession for them. I'm sorry to tell you this, Woden, but that kind of limited and extremely narrow-minded thinking is what causes all the problems with prostitution that you so desperately point out. If prostitution were recognized as a legitimate job then the women would be safer, the working conditions would be cleaner and there wouldn't be the kind of trafficking you're talking about (at least not in the same numbers) because people would support those working legally. There will always be a black market and there will always be people forced or coerced into prostitution and into sexual slavery, that will never change. Being conditioned and weak willed has nothing to do with having an open mind and see that sometimes the spoon-fed bullsh*t we are given by the government, church and media isn't exactly the whole truth. I encourage you, WODEN to try to open your mind up a little bit. The UK isn't the whole world, most Korean women aren't forced into prostitution and neither are a majority of the women who choose to be prostitutes in Thailand, Japan, Canada, France, The Netherlands, etc.. |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Dysupes wrote: |
Ok, so here's where I'm having trouble with your thinking. Sex trafficking happens. Yes, ok, it does. Prostitution happens. Yes, ok, it does too. So therefore the majority of prostitutes must be part of the slavery system of human sex trafficking. Ummm, no. It's not painting a rosy picture of prostitution to say that the majority of people who are prostitutes around the world are doing it as a job in the same way you work as a teacher. It's a chosen profession for them. I'm sorry to tell you this, Woden, but that kind of limited and extremely narrow-minded thinking is what causes all the problems with prostitution that you so desperately point out. |
This is an interesting point, mainly because it is irrational. So, rather than the trafficking and slavery being the problem, it is the people who believe prostitution, as part of international criminal networks, is exploitative who cause the problem? Say that to the teenager from Lithuania who is holed up in a small room in central London. Tell her it is Woden causing her misery, not the global mafia networks.
| Dysupes wrote: |
| If prostitution were recognized as a legitimate job then the women would be safer, the working conditions would be cleaner and there wouldn't be the kind of trafficking you're talking about (at least not in the same numbers) because people would support those working legally. |
This is the only rational view to have on the matter, unless human nature is suppressed (and look what happens when that happens! cf. Catholic Church). Legalised prostitution is really the only way of providing support to the women involved in the trade for matters of health and social care, which in many cases they are completely excluded from. This could also provide means to get out of the trade, as most women, and I will reiterate, want to secure other means of income outside of the trade. It has to be said that even in areas with legalised prostitution (Amsterdam) it is still run by international mafias. The advantage of these areas is that they are accessible to essential service providers in health and social care, where women on the streets are not.
| Dysupes wrote: |
| There will always be a black market and there will always be people forced or coerced into prostitution and into sexual slavery, that will never change. Being conditioned and weak willed has nothing to do with having an open mind and see that sometimes the spoon-fed bullsh*t we are given by the government, church and media isn't exactly the whole truth. I encourage you, WODEN to try to open your mind up a little bit. The UK isn't the whole world, most Korean women aren't forced into prostitution and neither are a majority of the women who choose to be prostitutes in Thailand, Japan, Canada, France, The Netherlands, etc.. |
I wasn't spoon-fed anything, you are in fact espousing the dominant ideology which is that prostitution is benevolent and a matter of free choice, which thus vindicates the people who visit the brothels, i.e. males. You wouldn't be a male who has visited a prostitute by any chance? DO you think this has in anyway influenced your ideology? Be honest...
You are right, the UK isn't the whole world...but although it is an island, its social problems are global. As aforesaid, the prostitutes in the UK are globally trafficked and also UK-born. The people who transport the prostitutes into the UK are most commonly said to be elements of the Russian mafia and south-eastern European criminal gangs. If we look at the Russian mafia we suddenly find ourselves shockingly close to our (erstwhile) home, in Korea, and areas such as Busan. The Japanese Yakuza and Chinese Triads are also involved in prostitution in Korea, and it goes without saying that Korean gangs control a large part of the industry, but they have links with Russia, China, Japan and beyond. I am not condemning people who visit prostitutes, per se, but I am saying it is disingenuous to claim there are no consequences to your actions beyond the women you have just boned...the money you pay her will be tainted with blood, sweat and kum across many continents. |
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Kimchi Cha Cha
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: was Suncheon, now Brisbane
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Should prostitution be regulated, decriminalised and legalised?
I believe, yes. I'm from Australia where prostitution is legal provided it is carried out from a registered premise, is registered by the Government and is regulated through tax, health care and pensions just like an other business. The prostitution premises are usually located nearby police stations and are fairly secure and safe; they have a hotline to call the police should there be a problem so the response time will always be quite fast. The local government has the power to decide where and if prostitution premises should be located. The sex workers are covered under all the benefits that regular workers receive (in that sense it's just like a regular job), and any crimes that may occur in these premises will be punished by the law. It keeps the sex workers off the streets or any other unsafe venues and has them in regulated, controlled, safe venues.
Having prostitution legalised leaves out the middle-men who are usually criminals, drug dealers, traffickers, pimps or abusive mama-sans, and greatly - if not, absolutely - reduces the risk of abuse such as trafficking, abuse and other illicit activities; provided it is well regulated and the police are doing their job properly and not being corrupt (which doesn't always happen unfortunately, but seems better nowadays). Street-walking and random solitication is illegal though does occur and the police crack down on that.
That said, Australia still does have a problem with illegal prostitution premises which traffic sex workers, usually from SE Asia and China, and are invloved in other illicit activities. But, the Government and police work hard to crack them down and punished the owners and others associated in illegal sex premises, and I believe these problems would be much worse if prostitution was illegal.
I believe it's better to admit that prostitution is - for better or worse - one of those things that will be around whether you like it or not, and it's better to admit to this and regulate the industry to try to protect sex workers rather than keeping it illegal, where it will still occur anyway and where sex workers are not protected and open to abuse and trafficking. |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
This is an interesting point, mainly because it is irrational. So, rather than the trafficking and slavery being the problem, it is the people who believe prostitution, as part of international criminal networks, is exploitative who cause the problem? Say that to the teenager from Lithuania who is holed up in a small room in central London. Tell her it is Woden causing her misery, not the global mafia networks. |
Thank you for proving my point for me. Prostitution can't be part of an international criminal network to the extent that it is unless people like you continue to regard it as something that should be illegal and abolished. It ain't goin' anywhere despite thousands of years of people saying, "Prostitution is bad!"
| Woden wrote: |
This is the only rational view to have on the matter, unless human nature is suppressed (and look what happens when that happens! cf. Catholic Church). Legalised prostitution is really the only way of providing support to the women involved in the trade for matters of health and social care, which in many cases they are completely excluded from. This could also provide means to get out of the trade, as most women, and I will reiterate, want to secure other means of income outside of the trade. It has to be said that even in areas with legalised prostitution (Amsterdam) it is still run by international mafias. The advantage of these areas is that they are accessible to essential service providers in health and social care, where women on the streets are not. |
Again, thanks. The workers need access to the social systems necessary for a safe working environment, as mentioned by Kimchi Cha Cha. Let's move on to your assertion that the brothels run in Amsterdam are all run by international mafias. Ok, maybe they are or again maybe not. Taking some examples and applying it across the spectrum is what so many people here on Dave's complain about when it comes to Korea bashing. Take a page out of that book and re-examine your assumptions. As Kimchi Cha Cha mentioned, if the systems put in place to legalize prostitution are really and truly run for the benefit of the women involved then that wouldn't be the case. Still, as you and I both agree Amsterdam's system keeps the girls off the streets though I would have to add that they are safer and not at risk for human trafficking, drugs and other criminal behaviour.
| Woden wrote: |
I wasn't spoon-fed anything, you are in fact espousing the dominant ideology which is that prostitution is benevolent and a matter of free choice, which thus vindicates the people who visit the brothels, i.e. males. You wouldn't be a male who has visited a prostitute by any chance? DO you think this has in anyway influenced your ideology? Be honest...
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If my view was the dominant ideology then prostitution would be legalized. So no, in fact my view isn't the dominant one. And I love how you turn that to say, "if you support the legalization of prostitution you must be a john yourself!"  The desire to want people to be safe in their choices and to have the freedom to do what they want, both providers and johns, doesn't have to stem from a personal connection. It is simply the idea that others, like yourself, shouldn't be dictating what two consenting adults do. Do you need me to tell you and direct you in everything you wish to purchase? No? Then why should consentual sex be any different? Ah, yes, because it's sex...
| Woden wrote: |
You are right, the UK isn't the whole world...but although it is an island, its social problems are global. As aforesaid, the prostitutes in the UK are globally trafficked and also UK-born. The people who transport the prostitutes into the UK are most commonly said to be elements of the Russian mafia and south-eastern European criminal gangs. If we look at the Russian mafia we suddenly find ourselves shockingly close to our (erstwhile) home, in Korea, and areas such as Busan. The Japanese Yakuza and Chinese Triads are also involved in prostitution in Korea, and it goes without saying that Korean gangs control a large part of the industry, but they have links with Russia, China, Japan and beyond. |
Again with the talk about the gangs and all of that. That accounts for some not ALL of the prostitutes found in the world. On top of that, if prostitution were legalized you'd find the very activity you're talking about would diminish significantly. Don't come on here all high and mighty and say, "The johns are the only ones responsible for prostitution! Oh, and the gangs!" when it is your viewpoint and those who agree with you that push prostitution and the prostitutes themselves into the very position you claim to abhor.
| Woden wrote: |
I am not condemning people who visit prostitutes, per se, but I am saying it is disingenuous to claim there are no consequences to your actions beyond the women you have just boned...the money you pay her will be tainted with blood, sweat and kum across many continents. |
I ask you to please examine your own actions beyond the high moral pedestal you seem to envision yourself upon. Take a better look at reality but this time take off the sh*t-stained glasses of conservative conformity and really think about what you are seeing. It really is the only way for you to grow up a bit and to stop pulling this "the money you pay her will be tainted with blood, sweat and kum across many continents" melodramatic bull out of your arse. Yes, this happens but it is NOT the norm no matter how much you would obviously like it to be. |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Dysupes wrote: |
| Woden wrote: |
This is an interesting point, mainly because it is irrational. So, rather than the trafficking and slavery being the problem, it is the people who believe prostitution, as part of international criminal networks, is exploitative who cause the problem? Say that to the teenager from Lithuania who is holed up in a small room in central London. Tell her it is Woden causing her misery, not the global mafia networks. |
Thank you for proving my point for me. Prostitution can't be part of an international criminal network to the extent that it is unless people like you continue to regard it as something that should be illegal and abolished. It ain't goin' anywhere despite thousands of years of people saying, "Prostitution is bad!"
| Woden wrote: |
This is the only rational view to have on the matter, unless human nature is suppressed (and look what happens when that happens! cf. Catholic Church). Legalised prostitution is really the only way of providing support to the women involved in the trade for matters of health and social care, which in many cases they are completely excluded from. This could also provide means to get out of the trade, as most women, and I will reiterate, want to secure other means of income outside of the trade. It has to be said that even in areas with legalised prostitution (Amsterdam) it is still run by international mafias. The advantage of these areas is that they are accessible to essential service providers in health and social care, where women on the streets are not. |
Again, thanks. The workers need access to the social systems necessary for a safe working environment, as mentioned by Kimchi Cha Cha. Let's move on to your assertion that the brothels run in Amsterdam are all run by international mafias. Ok, maybe they are or again maybe not. Taking some examples and applying it across the spectrum is what so many people here on Dave's complain about when it comes to Korea bashing. Take a page out of that book and re-examine your assumptions. As Kimchi Cha Cha mentioned, if the systems put in place to legalize prostitution are really and truly run for the benefit of the women involved then that wouldn't be the case. Still, as you and I both agree Amsterdam's system keeps the girls off the streets though I would have to add that they are safer and not at risk for human trafficking, drugs and other criminal behaviour.
| Woden wrote: |
I wasn't spoon-fed anything, you are in fact espousing the dominant ideology which is that prostitution is benevolent and a matter of free choice, which thus vindicates the people who visit the brothels, i.e. males. You wouldn't be a male who has visited a prostitute by any chance? DO you think this has in anyway influenced your ideology? Be honest...
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If my view was the dominant ideology then prostitution would be legalized. So no, in fact my view isn't the dominant one. And I love how you turn that to say, "if you support the legalization of prostitution you must be a john yourself!" The desire to want people to be safe in their choices and to have the freedom to do what they want, both providers and johns, doesn't have to stem from a personal connection. It is simply the idea that others, like yourself, shouldn't be dictating what two consenting adults do. Do you need me to tell you and direct you in everything you wish to purchase? No? Then why should consentual sex be any different? Ah, yes, because it's sex...
| Woden wrote: |
You are right, the UK isn't the whole world...but although it is an island, its social problems are global. As aforesaid, the prostitutes in the UK are globally trafficked and also UK-born. The people who transport the prostitutes into the UK are most commonly said to be elements of the Russian mafia and south-eastern European criminal gangs. If we look at the Russian mafia we suddenly find ourselves shockingly close to our (erstwhile) home, in Korea, and areas such as Busan. The Japanese Yakuza and Chinese Triads are also involved in prostitution in Korea, and it goes without saying that Korean gangs control a large part of the industry, but they have links with Russia, China, Japan and beyond. |
Again with the talk about the gangs and all of that. That accounts for some not ALL of the prostitutes found in the world. On top of that, if prostitution were legalized you'd find the very activity you're talking about would diminish significantly. Don't come on here all high and mighty and say, "The johns are the only ones responsible for prostitution! Oh, and the gangs!" when it is your viewpoint and those who agree with you that push prostitution and the prostitutes themselves into the very position you claim to abhor.
| Woden wrote: |
I am not condemning people who visit prostitutes, per se, but I am saying it is disingenuous to claim there are no consequences to your actions beyond the women you have just boned...the money you pay her will be tainted with blood, sweat and kum across many continents. |
I ask you to please examine your own actions beyond the high moral pedestal you seem to envision yourself upon. Take a better look at reality but this time take off the sh*t-stained glasses of conservative conformity and really think about what you are seeing. It really is the only way for you to grow up a bit and to stop pulling this "the money you pay her will be tainted with blood, sweat and kum across many continents" melodramatic bull out of your arse. Yes, this happens but it is NOT the norm no matter how much you would obviously like it to be. |
I was not applying an example across the spectrum, I was using a case example of your argument. Amsterdam is well known as a place where legalised prostitution takes place, therefore it is a good example...
...it does not take prostitutes off the street, not in any way shape or form. Have you been to Amsterdam? If you had you would no there is still street trade...another example is from Australia as an earlier poster told us, and there we also have street trade. The brothels become run buy mafias and criminals because it is lucrative and they can exploit powerless people to make money from them.
Imagine, it is school careers day...what do you want to be Lucy? I want to be a prostitute Miss Brown....
...the reason criminal gangs run these enterprises is because there is not enough willing prostitutes to satisfy demand, no matter how professional the industry becomes. That means coercion is necessary to provide consumption, and criminal gangs are perfectly placed to coerce people into prostitution, and that is what they do. My original point was to dispute the claim that there was nothing wrong with prostitution, and my point has been made regarding that, which you yourself have agreed with.
So, criminality has nothing to do with whether you or I regard prostitution as wrong, it is down to the fact it is a highly profitable business, and one which is repelling for most women who have been lucky enough to have had a stable and educated background. There are some women, the ones who are most in need of help, who might choose prostitution because of life circumstance, but I am yet to be convinced that they wouldn't choose other avenues if they were made available.
It is the fact of demand outstripping willing supply that criminals fill the gap in the market...therefore legalised brothels will not do away with such trade...this is in fact what studies of legalised prostitution confirm. |
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