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"Childrens do learn," Bush tells school kids
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

...it is embarassing when a leader makes comments like the one made about Mandela.

I understood that most who contributed to that thread agreed that the President was speaking figuratively about "Iraq's Nelson Mandelas" -- that is, in his mind at least, "Iraq's moderates" -- and not Nelson Mandela per se.

Apparently you found those points insufficient to change your mind. And you continue to actually fault the President for allegedly not knowing that Nelson Mandela the man remains alive...?

Adventurer wrote:

...and we don't have to support him, because you may support him.

Adventurer: you are right. And, I would like to state for the first time on this thread, that I do not support W. Bush. I think it is important to clarify this because, clearly, I have given no positive indication on this issue to date. Thanks, Adventurer.

On a wholly unrelated matter: Big_Bird: I capitulate: you were right and I was wrong on our propaganda discussion. Perhaps people really are incapable of dealing with any but the simplest of messages. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat...

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:04 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

On a wholly unrelated matter: Big_Bird: I capitulate: you were right and I was wrong on our propaganda discussion. Perhaps people really are incapable of dealing with any but the simplest of messages. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat...

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:39 am Post subject:

Steve wrote:

Quote:

What I find really juvenile is posters like OTOH using such phrases as "I hate his guts..." How about "I dislike the man immensely" or "I have nothing but contempt for him?"

Hmm, and here I was thinking you might be happy to have someone from "the other side" coming over to your team on this issue.

I mean, I really don't like the guy. Hate his guts, dislike him intensely, six of one half a dozen of the other, if you ask me. I guess I might have gone with the stronger phrasing because I wanted to emphasize the point that I'm not arguing this from a pre-determined pro-Bush bias, but simply because I really do think that grammatical errors are irrelevant.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:49 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

...it is embarassing when a leader makes comments like the one made about Mandela.

Adventurer wrote:

...and we don't have to support him, because you may support him.

Gopher, thanks for the clarification, but we know he was speaking metaphorically, but people don't use the name Mandela, they use Ghandi, not Mandela. Ghandi is dead; Mandela is not. So it is embarassing when someone says Mandela is dead even if it is only metaphorically speaking.
Many South Africans didn't like that somehow. It was a poor choice of words. I have no problem with people using metaphors. People gave Dan Quayle flack when he said on a trip to Latin America that he wished he studied more of his Latin. Of course, we knew what he meant, Dan Quayle is not dumb, but a politicians choice of words is definitely very important. I hope that people will take more pains to elect politicians who are more well-spoken and have years of experience, and they will have learned from this presidency. At least, all the candidates running have some foreign policy experience and are eloquent on both sides of the aisle. That is positive, and I am grateful for that.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:58 am Post subject:

Quote:

People gave Dan Quayle flack when he said on a trip to Latin America that he wished he studied more of his Latin.

Actually, I think that one was made up. This Snopes page gives the authentic and inauthentic Quayle quotes.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/quayle.asp

Atavistic

Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:12 am Post subject:

Bush can't string together three words and some posters are defending this? Seriously?

Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: ...

Quote:

As it is, you betray an obsession with meaningless trivialities. And you implicitly use W. Bush to announce your own superior grammatical abilities. You have done this several times here.

And what are you doing here if you don't share a similar obsession, Goph? Don't you have bigger fish to fry?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

...but a politicians [sic] choice of words is definitely very important. I hope that people will take more pains to...

A generally badly-written response, Adventurer. As usual, you ramble here and there. And I find it richly ironic that, as your post shows yet again, a collection of trained, educated, and experienced English instructors would make so many grammatical errors when so pedantically if not self-righteously coming down on the President for each and every error he might make as if the world's fate were hanging in the balance.

That is one point to consider in response to Alyallen: no you are not in public office; but you are professional, English-language educators, no? I think more than merely your students are on par with the President, then, Alyallen.

Last edited by Gopher on Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

...but a politicians [sic] choice of words is definitely very important. I hope that people will take more pains to...

A generally badly-written response, Adventurer. As usual, you ramble here and there. And I find it richly ironic that, as your post shows yet again, a collection of trained, educated, and experienced English instructors would make so many grammatical errors when so pedantically if not self-righteously coming down on the President for each and every error he might make as if the world's fate hang in the balance.

That is one point to consider in response to Alyallen: no you are not in public office; but you are professional, English-language educators, no? I think more than merely your students are on par with the President, then, Alyallen.

Gopher, you are the only one who said my post was badly-written. Frankly, I see your post as the epitome of a post filled with rants and you ramble ad nauseum. I know we are not in the age of Cicero, but a president should be able to speak and write his language well. He should also have foreign policy experience, and the populace should ensure that
they elect someone who is far more qualified than they. You are basically saying that a president need not be able to convey his thoughts in a diplomatic, coherent fashion. I don't see most here really agreeing with you that a president shouldn't be coherent and choose his words with care, but carry on, Gopher.

Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

That is one point to consider in response to Alyallen: no you are not in public office; but you are [i]professional, English-language educators , no?[/i] I think more than merely your students are on par with the President, then, Alyallen.

Seriously, if you are going to talk about professionalism and education, at least get the sentence right.

Looks like someone should step away from the forum and hit the books again.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject:

Alyallen: there is nothing wrong with that sentence.

Alyallen

Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Alyallen: there is nothing wrong with that sentence.

You seriously think so...?

"You" refering to me but educators refering to me and my siamese twin?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

That is one point to consider in response to Alyallen: no you are not in public office; but you are professional, English-language educators, no? I think more than merely your students are on par with the President, then, Alyallen.

Alyallen wrote:

"You" refering to me but educators refering to me and my siamese [sic] twin?

I see the confusion. Let us break this down and explain it to you piece-by peice.

(a) "That is one point to consider in response to Alyallen:" THIS INTRODUCES A POINT I AM ABOUT TO EMPHASIZE WHICH BEARS ON SOMETHING YOU SAID EARLIER; IT DOES NOT ADDRESS "YOU" IN THE SECOND-PERSON YET, HOWEVER.

(b) "Alyallen: no you are not in public office..." THIS SPEAKS TO ALYALLEN AND THOSE WHO ARE SIDING WITH HER IN THIS PATHETIC CRITIQUE OF W. BUSH'S ENGLISH THAT HAS DRAGGED ON IN THE PRESS ON IN FORA LIKE THESE FOR OVER SEVEN YEARS NOW. I AM SPEAKING IN THE SECOND-PERSON PLURAL.

SO, NO, I ADDRESSED NO TWINS. I MERELY ADDRESSED YOUR POINT AS YOU ARTICULATED IT IN THE FIRST-PERSON PLURAL. REMEMBER THIS...?

Alyallen wrote:

Gopher may be right about some posters' language use but since when have any of us been government officials much less presidents of the U.S.?

(c) "...but you are professional, English-language educators, no? STILL IN THE SECOND-PERSON PLURAL. STILL ADDRESSING YOU, ALYALLEN, IN THE SECOND-PERSON SINGULAR AND THOSE WHO HAVE SIDED WITH YOU ON THIS THREAD, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, ADVENTURER.

(d) "I think more than merely your students are on par with the President, then, Alyallen." THIS ADDRESSES YOU IN THE SECOND-PERSON SINGULAR, ALYALLEN. BUT IT CONTINUES TO ADDRESS THE OTHERS IMPLICITLY. THAT WAS MY INTENT.

Now, I can see how my shifting from the second-person singular to the second-person plural in a single paragraph might seem confusing. And I take responsibility for that. My bad.

However, I am aware of no English-grammar rules that forbid such shifts. Yet I can cite people posing as purists on this thread not knowing how to use an apostrophe. Got anything comparable on me?

In any case, I would like to revise one of my clauses, above.

Before, I said this...

Gopher wrote:

but you are professional, English-language educators, no?

I want to revise my emphases so that it says this...

Gopher wrote:

but you are professional, English-language educators, no?

That will be all, Alyallen. I suggest you return to your easy-target: the President.

Last edited by Gopher on Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject:

Alyallen wrote:

Gopher wrote:

Seriously, if you are going to talk about professionalism and education, at least get the sentence right.

Looks like someone should step away from the forum and hit the books again.

Aly, you are right, Gopher's paragraph sounded strange. It does happen in forums. It is not a big deal. However, since he was saying many of the people who were criticizing the president for his mangling of his native tongue by saying they used English grammar poorly as well. I am sure Gopher can write well. This is a forum, after all.

Gopher, you are saying that English teachers should be qualified. You are correct. In the same vein, a president must be qualified to speak about topics such as education, economics, and policy. At least, the president should be strong in at least one area. Eisenhower was strong when it came to foreign policy and military affairs. I am not sure if he was well-spoken, but it appears he was very educated. He had strong leadership skills, in the main. How a leader sounds in front of the camera is important. I did like how Bush senior sounded in front of a microphone.
He did a good job. If how you sound is irrelevant, then Rumsfeld might still be working for the government.

By the way, I don't think I am better than George Bush. I just don't think he is qualified for the job anymore than I would be qualified to teach Spanish, since I can only speak broken Spanish.

I know some people think the Mandela comments are trivial, but many people revere Mandela. It would have been appropriate to speak of Ghandi metaphorically since he is not an ailing hero, but is, in fact, dead.

Last edited by Adventurer on Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

Alyallen wrote:

Gopher wrote:

Seriously, if you are going to talk about professionalism and education, at least get the sentence right.

Looks like someone should step away from the forum and hit the books again.

It didn't sound strange to me. And when Alyallen questioned it, I went through it carefully and couldn't find an error (and I have a fairly good eye for that kind of thing). And I understood it on first reading exactly how Gopher later explained it.

And it was two sentences. Wink

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