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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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 Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| Too bad, because I think you had a pretty good case. I hate it when a poster is allowed to repeat the same fallacious "arguments" over and over again in such a belligerent way, demanding answers to questions that aren't relevant to the subject at hand. (About the ER doctors, soldiers, firefighters, etc.) I've seen it happen in other threads, and it's annoying. It really gets in the way of a civil discussion. |
Oh please. If you want to be on the side of civility, you might want to avoid the poster who likes to pull out an ad hominems in almost every post.
And yes, her "right" to express milk during an ER situation is relevant to the discussion. She plans on entering residency this fall. What will she do when she's the only resident on duty and has to pull a busy overnight shift with no breaks? |
I think BB was civil and she supported her position. Other posters in this thread haven't been serious.
I don't want to get drawn into it, but I think you're missing the real significance of this story. This ruling will affect the health of many babies and children, not just one. Don't you want kids to get the best possible start in life? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
I think BB was civil and she supported her position. Other posters haven't been serious in this thread. |
Calling people a plonker is being civil?
| Quote: |
| I don't want to get drawn into it, but I think you're missing the real significance of this story. This ruling will affect the health of many babies and children, not just one. Don't you want kids to get the best possible start in life? |
Oh please.
First, it's not like the baby will be at the testing center with her. The baby will be getting fed just the same. There is no health of any babies at stake.
Secondly, how is getting only one break to express radically different than getting two breaks to express? Is that extra 1.5 hour wait going to kill her? While most sites that I've read do suggest expressing every few hours, none of them have said that going 4.5 hours between sessions is going to cause any major problems. I don't recall BB presenting any cited evidence to the contrary.
Finally, if a woman is that dependent on a once every 3-hour expressing schedule, she's better off waiting until she's done breastfeeding to start her residency. If a one-day test is somehow going to affect the health of her child, what is 3 years of residency going to do? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Ah, I didn't want to waste my time on this silly exercise anymore. But I've got some time to waste, so here goes...
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| thiophene wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
It is not even reasonable for you to DEMAND that I give you a list of when or when not breastfeeding is appropriate. This is utterly stupid. This is a bloody message board. There is no rule that I do so. And I will not be dictated to in such a bizarre way. . |
I think it would be great to try to understand each other. No one is demanding anything from you as if your life depended on it. I want to (or more acuratly, wanted to) understand with good reason why you and others think the way you do. Sure it is a message board and nobility is a foreign concept but some of us just want to understand. Please don't take offense to this, it's just a means to relate. |
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Go back and read carefully. You'll find HuffPuff regularly badgering me for answers to questions that I have already stated are outside the scope what's involved (i.e. giving a break specifically for breastfeeding in an exam). One example of it is where he demands (yes demands) I reply to his question about whether a female doctor should be allowed to take a break during a consultation with a patient. Quite ludicrous.
| Huffy wrote: |
Well said. We both (BB and I) believe "reasonable" accommodations should be made. The whole issue is what we believe is "reasonable." If you're unwilling to establish that very basic premises, this discussion, has BB has proven, will go nowhere. |
This pure nonsense. I made it clear that an hours break in a day long exam is quite reasonable. That's all I need do. There is no special rule that says I then have to establish every possible circumstance (outside this scenario of a day long exam) when a woman may reasonably expect to be accommodated in her endevours to breastfeed. Because I did not establish this, HuffnPuff then surmised (with seriously faulty logic) that I believed that society must accommodate breastfeeding in any situation. This is not an intelligent conclusion. At this point I decided HuffPuff must be a bit of a plonker. When he kept asserting that that was my position (rather insultingly) , despite my assurances to the contrary, I no longer felt the need to be polite, and quite openly called him for the plonker he so obviously is.
| Huffaluff wrote: |
I believe the accommodations offered - breaks when sections are done early and her own testing room - are reasonable. That no nursing mothers before her seemed to have had a problem with those accommodations would tend to support my position. |
More faulty logic. The fact that up until now no-one campaigned to change the situation doesn't mean previous accommodations were reasonable. That is a fallacious argument. I've spoken to older women who talk about how in their day, little provision was made for breastfeeding women in public areas. They had to sit in smelly public toilets breastfeeding their babies, and really hated it. This went on for years. Very few of them complained, despite it being a far far more regular occurance than sitting the odd exam. They hated it, but they never thought to complain. Who could they complain to? There was no breastfeeding mothers' union. They just put up with it. Fortunately, at some point, enough women did complain that the government was lobbied, and now I can find areas to breastfeed my baby in relative comfort. Someone like you might have pointed out to the lobbyists, "well, we haven't had this complaint before, so it must have been fine! You're complaining about nothing!!"
It's unlikely previous breastfeeding test-takers would have officially complained. How much time do you have when you are a medical student AND a breastfeeding mother!? They may have complained in private, but very few women would have been willing to take on the system. Your argument just doesn't stand.
| Huffdywuffdy wrote: |
| What I think is unreasonable is altering the format of a national, standardized exam, which is used to evaluate the competency of people entering residency. Especially when residency itself will be 10x's tougher on her attempts to maintain a pumping schedule. There's no point in allowing her the added accommodations on the test when she won't get anywhere close to those accommodations after she passes the test (if she does pass it). |
And you keep insisting on talking about this specific woman. I am celebrating the precedent that has been set. The fact that it is now considered appropriate that a breastfeeding woman have breaks in a day long exam to express her milk is good progress.
People keep pointing to this woman's specific circumstances and her shortcomings. I keep reiterating that I am not interested in this specific woman. I am interested in the principle and the precedent. And yet you and others keep banging on about her to me again and again and again and again and again. Fine, if you want to obsess on her, do discuss her in your posts, but please stop refering to her in your replies to me when I have expressly told you all again and again and again that I am not interested in this specific woman. You are ignoring the parameters of that which I have already expressed I am interested in discussing, demanding again and again that I return to this woman when I have politely (originally politely) told you I have no interest in the nittygritty of this specific case.
I've already pointed out that I do not think she should take on residency when she is breastfeeding. That doesn't mean she should not be allowed to take this test. Perhaps in a couple of months (she may have set a goal of six months of breastfeeding - a common goal) she will be in a position to start her residency. Who are you to dictate this to her.
And the above paragraph is a reminder of why I now consider you a plonker. I have been over this ground with you before. But you insist on the same questions and assertions again and again, apparantly ignoring all my previous responses. And this means we go around in circles. And this means I consider you someone too dense to have a good discussion with. In other words: a plonker. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
I think BB was civil and she supported her position. Other posters haven't been serious in this thread. |
Calling people a plonker is being civil? |
Asserting again and again that a poster has beliefs and opinions she does not, even when she expressly insists your assertions are wrong, is civil?
| HuffaLot wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't want to get drawn into it, but I think you're missing the real significance of this story. This ruling will affect the health of many babies and children, not just one. Don't you want kids to get the best possible start in life? |
Oh please.
First, it's not like the baby will be at the testing center with her. The baby will be getting fed just the same. There is no health of any babies at stake. |
Bramble is quite right. When society takes steps to accommodate and acknowledge the difficulties of breastfeeding, it makes it all the more likely that women will continue breastfeeding. It is a fact that most mothers do not breastfeed, and a fact that many start out trying to breastfeed, but give up in the face of much adversity. So this step indirectly contributes to the health of babies.
Secondly, not expressing your milk at a regular interval causes problems with your supply (even if you are talking about one day - it's a very delicate balance) and this does cause problems for the baby as he won't get the full amount of milk he needs in the coming days. YES, THE SUPPLY DIMINISHES THAT FAST. He will have to suck and suck and suck to get his mum's milk back up again. I have already explained this, but as usual, you ignore what I say and do not address it.
| Huff the Magic Dragon wrote: |
| Secondly, how is getting only one break to express radically different than getting two breaks to express? Is that extra 1.5 hour wait going to kill her? While most sites that I've read do suggest expressing every few hours, none of them have said that going 4.5 hours between sessions is going to cause any major problems. I don't recall BB presenting any cited evidence to the contrary. |
You keep going on about that woman and her particular circumstances. But this ruling will apply to day long exams, which is what I have in mind when I have been discussing this. But nonetheless, yes 4.5 hours (which will likely translate into at least 5 hours - unless she is able to express immediately (within minutes) before and after the exam) is still too long. 2-2.5 hours is what many woman do. No more than 3 hours is not a good idea. She may have VERY sore breasts for the last hour of the exam, and if she does it on 2 successive days she's messing with her milk supply.
| Forever Huffing and Puffing around in circles wrote: |
| Finally, if a woman is that dependent on a once every 3-hour expressing schedule, she's better off waiting until she's done breastfeeding to start her residency. If a one-day test is somehow going to affect the health of her child, what is 3 years of residency going to do? |
And this is something I've addressed before. In this state, she is able to study. Presumably it is only the lengthy test that poses a problem. Most of the time she will be at home working on the theoretical part of her course. Why shouldn't she? Then, she can do the residency at a more expedient time. You seem to be insisting that if she takes the exam today, she has to be in residency practically by tomorrow! This puzzles me. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| He will have to suck and suck and suck to get his mum's milk back up again. I have already explained this, but as usual, you ignore what I say and do not address it. |
This is an honest question. Since there are women who manage to breastfeed adopted kids without having been pregnant, and since there are (creepily enough) "adult beastfeeders," it's obvious that different things can get milk going. Wouldn't pumping pumping pumping work too? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Atavistic wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| He will have to suck and suck and suck to get his mum's milk back up again. I have already explained this, but as usual, you ignore what I say and do not address it. |
This is an honest question. Since there are women who manage to breastfeed adopted kids without having been pregnant, and since there are (creepily enough) "adult beastfeeders," it's obvious that different things can get milk going. Wouldn't pumping pumping pumping work too? |
Yes it will. That is why when you are away from baby, it is important to keep pumping. But either way, bubs will not quite get the full amount for a couple of days. Frankly, it's easier to have him sucking, than messing around pumping. You could supplement with formula, but healthworkers warn you not to go down that path, because then you get into a vicious circle of baby not needing to suck so much because he is being satisfied, and your milk dwindling further. Pumping is necessary there too, but you'll be doing it every 2 hours for a couple of days - and let me tell you, that will drive you half mad, because you'll be cleaning and sterilising everytime you do it. You'll hardly be able to fit in anything else into your day.
Also, formula is not really a good alternative. It's been marketed as a perfectly good food source for babies, but in reality it is a poor second to the real thing.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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It seems that the original article was pretty unclear on the allowances she's getting.
From that and that alone, I'd support BB, but after reading this article: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYPzev-DUNfn721b_oSZziif5CUw
From someone that's never breastfed before and admitedly doesn't know much about it, this
| Quote: |
| Currier already has received special accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act for dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, including permission to take the test over two days instead of one. The board also offered her a separate testing room where she can express milk during the test or during break time, and the option to leave the test center to breast-feed during break times. |
seems like a reasonable accommodation to me |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
It seems that the original article was pretty unclear on the allowances she's getting.
From that and that alone, I'd support BB, but after reading this article: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYPzev-DUNfn721b_oSZziif5CUw
From someone that's never breastfed before and admitedly doesn't know much about it, this
| Quote: |
| Currier already has received special accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act for dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, including permission to take the test over two days instead of one. The board also offered her a separate testing room where she can express milk during the test or during break time, and the option to leave the test center to breast-feed during break times. |
seems like a reasonable accommodation to me |
Yes, other posters keep talking about this specific student, but it will be a good precedent for those woman who will be taking the full day long test, and who don't have breaks for ADD. Successive breastfeeding mums will (presumably) benefit - or to put it as I see it, they will no longer be disadvantaged, no longer forced to choose poor health practises and deal with painfully engorged breasts in order to properly focus on the test.
Secondly, I don't see how the option of expressing her milk in the test is adequate accommodation? She will be using precious test time to pump her milk. You need both hands to hold the pumps, so she will not be able to write during that time. The break time (45 minutes) is too short to express the amount of milk required and eat, and go to the bathroom, and stretch and walk about for a few minutes (something I need to do) - things the other students unencumbered with breastpumping will be free to do. She will be rushed and flustered trying to fit it all in, while others are able to take it easy. I do not see this as reasonable - not when months and months of hard study will all be measured in this test. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| daffy duck wrote: |
It's unlikely previous breastfeeding test-takers would have officially complained. How much time do you have when you are a medical student AND a breastfeeding mother!? They may have complained in private, but very few women would have been willing to take on the system. Your argument just doesn't stand. |
The same testing hours apply to almost every standardized test given in the country. So it's not just this particular test. Maybe all the other nursing mothers are smart enough to realize that it is their choice to take the test, and the shouldn't being trying to alter the format of a national, standardized test to fit their lifestyle.
Just how do you purpose we accommodate this new schedule for nursing mothers at every testing site around the country? The tests are taken in unison. Having one person on a separate schedule will either require a separate proctor for every nursing mother or every one taking the test will need to conform to the new schedule.
| Quote: |
| I've already pointed out that I do not think she should take on residency when she is breastfeeding. That doesn't mean she should not be allowed to take this test. Perhaps in a couple of months (she may have set a goal of six months of breastfeeding - a common goal) she will be in a position to start her residency. Who are you to dictate this to her. |
I'm not trying to dictate anything to her. Why do you keep on insisting that I do, Madam Plonkers. It should be her choice to take the test as given, or to serve as a resident in the system in place. She's the one trying to dictate new rules.
Again, the test is meant to determine whether or not she is qualified to enter residency now. If she's not able to devote the time towards being a resident now, then she shouldn't take the test now. But I'm perfectly happy leaving the decision in her hands. She can test the test now, as provided, with its 45 minute break. Or she can wait a few months to take the test, as provided then, with its 45 minute break.
The same principle applies to every other person taking this test. I know it's a difficult decision, but someones got to make it.
| Quote: |
| And this means we go around in circles. And this means I consider you someone too dense to have a good discussion with. In other words: a plonker. |
pot kettle plonker. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I suggest we consult the Quran for our answer to this dilemma.
Last edited by JongnoGuru on Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| So BB, how much time do they need to pump? And you say three hours is too long to wait to pump? Then how, exactly, would you want pumping mothers to take this nine hr test? What would your schedule be? |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| BB you know much more about this than I do. I think the breast feeding lobby deserves a better poster child than this woman though. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
1) Can't breastfeeding mothers in situations like this woman's have someone feed their baby milk that the mother has stored ahead of time,
2) or even (gasp!) infant formula, for just these two or three or however many feedings the baby needs while mom's off taking her test? |
These questions have been answered, but I know you are pre-sorry! 
1) Yes, this is what will happen. But in the meantime, she has to keep her supply up (milk supply dwindles surprisingly quickly if you dont express at regular intervals - even a day can make a difference to this). Also, not expressing can cause considerable discomfort (I hated walking when I was overdue to express), and it can lead to mastitis (a horrible condition which I know all about due to my sister's experience of it).
2) Health workers advise not to even think about it. Substitute a few times, and baby is too satisfied to drink from you the amount he normally does, and so your supply adjusts almost immediately and you're forced to give more formula and it's a vicious circle. A lot of breastfeeding mums find to their dismay that giving formula a few times spelt the death knell for their breastfeeding.
For the record: my husband and I used this option after my son was 6 months, and slowly slowly he wanted me less and less, until one day he absolutely refused to drink from me anymore as he'd decided the milk in the bottle was more his 'cup of tea.' |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Atavistic wrote: |
| So BB, how much time do they need to pump? And you say three hours is too long to wait to pump? Then how, exactly, would you want pumping mothers to take this nine hr test? What would your schedule be? |
I've already answered this question. Take the time to read it. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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What do you make of this?
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| Some breastfeeding mothers use commercially prepared infant formula as a supplement to their breast milk, which allows them the best of both worlds. They can offer their babies they undeniable advantages of breast milk while affording themselves the peace of mind that comes from knowing that their babies will have an alternate meal available, even if the supply of pre-pumped breast milk has been consumed. This is an especially useful strategy for mothers who must regularly leave their baby in someone else's care while they are at work. |
http://www.growingkids.co.uk/FormulaMilk.html |
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