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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thank the Lord for Google Scholar...just when you need to win and argument!!
"In one Dutch study, 79 per cent of women in prostitution gave an indication that they were in prostitution due to some degree of force" (The Dutch Institute of Social Sexological Research, 2000).
That is a clear majority, a landslide one might say...and in a country with some of the most liberal prostitution laws.
This makes an interesting point that shows how prostitution in the legal areas had declined, only to increase in the illegal zones...Why? Because women do not want to work as prostitutes, by and large, and the illegal zones were where criminals could coerce them into prostitution...
"Furthermore, the evaluation found that a half of the registered sex establishments have disappeared, partly because they were not able to recruit women, but at the same time the street walking zones, where there are many illegal women, have flourished." (Goderie, Spierings and ter Woerds, 2002).
Legalisation is better than criminalisation, but it does not make prostitution a benevolent industry. |
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dogshed
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| unknown9398 wrote: |
| twg wrote: |
| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
| Who cares? I say let's drop these puritanical attitudes towards prostitution and opiates, and let's live life. Is this not what Jesus would want? |
The problems with the prostitution is that it is by and large not a voluntary choice for the women... more typically young girls... involved.
It's categorized as slavery for a reason. |
That's a common misperception propagated by people who are offended by and would like to abolish the sex industry. |
International organizations fighting against sexual slavery say that it's more productive to take the labor conditions angle and fight slavery in general instead of just focusing on the sex industry. |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| I will repeat that although it may seem to be a profession of choice, it is an imposition of choice, so not truly free. You can always find examples of women who have entered the profession and are happy in it, but these are an extreme minority. |
Life is full of my impositions. It is like being an English teacher in Korea. One may choose freely to work for their employer but after they sign the contract there are many things imposed on them. Not to mention the amount of paper that is required to get certain jobs.
Is straddling American university graduates with $50,000 or more debt not an imposition of choice as well? |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
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| I will repeat that although it may seem to be a profession of choice, it is an imposition of choice, so not truly free. You can always find examples of women who have entered the profession and are happy in it, but these are an extreme minority. |
Life is full of my impositions. It is like being an English teacher in Korea. One may choose freely to work for their employer but after they sign the contract there are many things imposed on them. Not to mention the amount of paper that is required to get certain jobs.
Is straddling American university graduates with $50,000 or more debt not an imposition of choice as well? |
Yes, but I think there are degrees of imposition as well. The events leading up to my choosing to be an English teacher involved a number of imposed choices, but I think we can say there is a qualitative difference between the choices we make, as university graduates, about our career moves, and the choices of destitute women who see no other way out than to sell there bodies.
We all make choices, and because we have limited available moves our choices are imposed somewhat...I would suggest that if the prostitutes now working had had our life choices they would not be where they are now. That is what exploitation and destitution is. |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I will repeat that although it may seem to be a profession of choice, it is an imposition of choice, so not truly free. You can always find examples of women who have entered the profession and are happy in it, but these are an extreme minority. |
Life is full of my impositions. It is like being an English teacher in Korea. One may choose freely to work for their employer but after they sign the contract there are many things imposed on them. Not to mention the amount of paper that is required to get certain jobs.
Is straddling American university graduates with $50,000 or more debt not an imposition of choice as well? |
Yes, but I think there are degrees of imposition as well. The events leading up to my choosing to be an English teacher involved a number of imposed choices, but I think we can say there is a qualitative difference between the choices we make, as university graduates, about our career moves, and the choices of destitute women who see no other way out than to sell there bodies.
We all make choices, and because we have limited available moves our choices are imposed somewhat...I would suggest that if the prostitutes now working had had our life choices they would not be where they are now. That is what exploitation and destitution is. |
Except for the thousands of them in North America and elsewhere who not only have a university education but are pursuing post-graduate education and are paying for it all by hooking in the evenings working for agencies (not pimps) as incall or outcall escorts. Do we consider them all to be destitute women and just push their university educations aside "for the greater good"?
Oh, and those women all have your life choices available to them. Is that still exploitation and destitution? I guess so cause some social studies have said so. And we all know that any study, no matter what bias the researcher had to begin with, is more substantial than a hooker's personal opinion. She's uneducated, exploited and destitute in all cases, after all... |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Dysupes wrote: |
| Woden wrote: |
| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I will repeat that although it may seem to be a profession of choice, it is an imposition of choice, so not truly free. You can always find examples of women who have entered the profession and are happy in it, but these are an extreme minority. |
Life is full of my impositions. It is like being an English teacher in Korea. One may choose freely to work for their employer but after they sign the contract there are many things imposed on them. Not to mention the amount of paper that is required to get certain jobs.
Is straddling American university graduates with $50,000 or more debt not an imposition of choice as well? |
Yes, but I think there are degrees of imposition as well. The events leading up to my choosing to be an English teacher involved a number of imposed choices, but I think we can say there is a qualitative difference between the choices we make, as university graduates, about our career moves, and the choices of destitute women who see no other way out than to sell there bodies.
We all make choices, and because we have limited available moves our choices are imposed somewhat...I would suggest that if the prostitutes now working had had our life choices they would not be where they are now. That is what exploitation and destitution is. |
Except for the thousands of them in North America and elsewhere who not only have a university education but are pursuing post-graduate education and are paying for it all by hooking in the evenings working for agencies (not pimps) as incall or outcall escorts. Do we consider them all to be destitute women and just push their university educations aside "for the greater good"?
Oh, and those women all have your life choices available to them. Is that still exploitation and destitution? I guess so cause some social studies have said so. And we all know that any study, no matter what bias the researcher had to begin with, is more substantial than a hooker's personal opinion. She's uneducated, exploited and destitute in all cases, after all... |
When did I say in all cases? I said in the majority. I was accused earlier in this thread of using an example and applying it across the spectrum, so I will assume that you are not suggesting that the extremely small minority of degree-educated prostitutes in the US are representative of the global sex industry...
...I have yet to see a study, however biased, of the global sex trade in which 'hookers' say they are happy with their predicament. I have conceded above that a minority of prostitutes will be happy in their profession, but the vast majority are not and these are the ones that should be empowered to find other means of employment...
...my point still stands that you cannot claim that there is 'nothing wrong with prostitution'. This is what I was taking issue with and I think it has been accepted that there is plenty wrong with the sex trade, despite there being rare instances of content. |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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What we agree on is that prostitution as it stands as a criminal act both for buyer and seller is wrong.  Aside from that, no, it in itself is not wrong. Sorry. 
I'm not applying it across the whole spectrum. But then again, like I said before, we can use Southeast Asia as another example that there are lots of women who choose to do it the same way you choose to go to work without being forced or coerced.
I don't agree with forced prostitution, child prostitution and sexual slavery but then as the links I gave you show this is in agreement with those who are pushing for the legalization and decriminalization of prostitution. And although it isn't a study, you can find many hookers through Chez Stella that want recognition of their job rather than to leave it. 
Anyway, I feel we are arguing in circles here with you somehow misreading Kimchi Cha Cha's statements about Australia and my "agreement" with you that prostitution is "wrong." The act of prostitution is not wrong unless we become dictators and decide what is right for everyone. Personally I don't want to be a dictator so I'll just let that slide and you can pick up that hot potato if you want to...  |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Dysupes wrote: |
Anyway, I feel we are arguing in circles here with you somehow misreading Kimchi Cha Cha's statements about Australia and my "agreement" with you that prostitution is "wrong." The act of prostitution is not wrong unless we become dictators and decide what is right for everyone. Personally I don't want to be a dictator so I'll just let that slide and you can pick up that hot potato if you want to... |
I agree with you that prostitution in its current state is wrong, and therefore no matter how much we would hope for a utopia of whoredom, it will never come to fruition. I do still believe that the profession leads to exploitation, but I think that has alot to do with the current economy of the profession and its undesirability to women not being in synch with the demand from men, rather than there being something intrinsically wrong with it, which I never claimed...
...I also agree that we are going in circles 
We should all have the freedom to pay for a shag...but can you ever be sure that your shag isn't a slave? |
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Dysupes
Joined: 24 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:41 am Post subject: |
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All right, we both agree to disagree about some of the details and to leave dictatorship for those who are good at it.... No names spring to mind but hey, that's why they're dictators!  |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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...my point still stands that you cannot claim that there is 'nothing wrong with prostitution'. This is what I was taking issue with and I think it has been accepted that there is plenty wrong with the sex trade, despite there being rare instances of content. |
What is your point? People are exploited in many jobs. I would argue that the hooker s in first world countries not including the ones from poorer countries are there because they choose to. The choose to work as a *beep* rather than work in McDonald's or for some they are even choosing being a *beep* over working a professional job.
Last edited by JZer on Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Woden
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Location: Eurasia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
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...my point still stands that you cannot claim that there is 'nothing wrong with prostitution'. This is what I was taking issue with and I think it has been accepted that there is plenty wrong with the sex trade, despite there being rare instances of content. |
What is your point? People are exploited in my jobs. I would argue that the hookers in first world countries not including the ones from poorer countries are there because they choose to. The choose to work as a *beep* rather than work in McDonald's or for some they are even choosing being a *beep* over working a professional job. |
You are in a world of your own...it defies belief, it really defies belief! |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| unknown9398 wrote: |
| That's a common misperception propagated by people who are offended by and would like to abolish the sex industry. |
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2005/46606.htm
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| In last year�s Report, we used U.S. Government data that disaggregated transnational trafficking in persons by age and gender for the first time. These data showed that, of the estimated 600,000 to 800,000 men, women, and children trafficked across international borders each year, approximately 80 percent are women and girls and up to 50 percent are minors. The data also illustrate that the majority of transnational victims are trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation. |
This is just one report. You can find many others that support it. If the sex trade was government run and open like the bordello in Arizona, then you guys would have an argument because you'd have some evidence of volunteers to point to.
But it's not. It's run by slavers. You are supporting the slave trade when you visit Hooker Hill. |
That's funny. I didn't know the hookers on Hooker Hill had been trafficked across international borders. I thought they were Korean. I also didn't know that a lot of them were minors. Just trying to figure out how the first part of your post relates to the last part of your post. |
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The Oracle
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hear your fate, O dwellers in red light areas!
Now your wood is standing proud and pouring sweat.
They shall only shiver with dread.
The black blood drips from the highest rooftops.
They will see the necessity of evil.
Get out, get out of my sanctum and drown your spirits in woe! |
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Keepongoing
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: yes |
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| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
I swear to god, all this talk about Korean men being mongers and all, I would say that 90% of the white guys I know/have known in Korea go/went to hookers, too.
And I see nothing wrong with it at all, except that it is too pricey in Korea as opposed to S-E Asia, and the service in general isn't as good. |
White guys that were in the Army before its moral crusade. Few places in Korea accept whitey except on Hooker Hill and if you ever saw them lurking out in the morning that would cure anyone of any interest.
As far as koreans, when last in the Philippines they were all over. I flew into Clark and stayed a few days before going to the beaches. Koreans had bars everywhere and you know what those bars are.
Want to do something interesting. Type "Pattaya newspaper" into Google and in many will come up. Go to the crime section and see how often Koreans come up. Not a lot, but they do appear in varying ways. I was going to post a link, but it shows their faces, so I didn't. |
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