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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| daffy duck wrote: |
It's unlikely previous breastfeeding test-takers would have officially blah blah |
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Yes I confess to chuckling at my new monika.
Yes, I don't see why an extra proctor can't be used. It wouldn't be a regular occurance anyway - how often do you have a breastfeeding mum for a classmate?
I disagree with your philosophy about it being a selfish lifestyle choice. I favour the Scandanavian attitude where the next generation are seen as society's responsiblility. In fact, that was the way it was throughout human history, until recently. Kids were reared by group effort.
You keep talking about now - what is the difference between now and a couple of months time? If she passes the test now, can she start residency in a month or two when her breastfeeding is done? Perhaps she'll give it up immediately on becoming a resident. Or, perhaps she's going to fight the system again (which is not a crime), and not for you to dictate she must not try. Personally, I think current practise is unacceptable (at least in the UK) and if people challenge it, it wont be a bad thing.
I really don't want to waste anymore time going around in circles on this thread. People keep making the same points over and over and asking me the same questions ignoring my earlier responses. I also found myself acquiring a very dim view of you, HuffPuff, when you started asserting I had beliefs which I do not, and kept misrepresenting my position, despite my indications to the contrary. That is probably my biggest pet peeve in any discussion. Did you learn your debating technique from The Bobster?
Anyway, I think it's about time I laid down and had 'thread death.' Let me RIP, thanks.
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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You just caught me in my death-throes, Jongno!
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
What do you make of this?
| Quote: |
| Some breastfeeding mothers use commercially prepared infant formula as a supplement to their breast milk, which allows them the best of both worlds. They can offer their babies they undeniable advantages of breast milk while affording themselves the peace of mind that comes from knowing that their babies will have an alternate meal available, even if the supply of pre-pumped breast milk has been consumed. This is an especially useful strategy for mothers who must regularly leave their baby in someone else's care while they are at work. |
http://www.growingkids.co.uk/FormulaMilk.html |
Yes, I've already explained that I myself did this. I've also explained the problems with it. At the hospital, and at the clinic I attended, healthworkers warn against this. It works sometimes, but it can spell disaster for breastfeeding. It certainly didn't work out for my first baby.
And if you look at the site you've linked to, it contains advertising for formula. |
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thiophene
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Go back and read carefully. You'll find HuffPuff regularly badgering me for answers to questions that I have already stated are outside the scope what's involved (i.e. giving a break specifically for breastfeeding in an exam). One example of it is where he demands (yes demands) I reply to his question about whether a female doctor should be allowed to take a break during a consultation with a patient. Quite ludicrous. |
I've read them carefully. Reasonable discussions involve questions and answers. They go both ways, you can ask questions too (and you have...in case you haven't noticed). If you have an answer I don't see why you are being so adamant on not answering some questions for the sake of understanding. denying an answer looks as though you're 1) not taking this seriously (especially since your original objection to his "demands" was that this isn't a thesis paper  ). The questions above seem reasonable to me and it's so easy to deny and say it has nothing to do with the case... but it's not helping the discussion. Or 2) can't think of one that'll maintain or strengthen your case. Nothing to be afraid/insulted of. If you think he/she is trolling you then ignore them. Otherwise don't waste our time with arguments that'll never hold up in a serious discussion. Anyways, I don't care anymore about your views. I've read them carefully, and you keep repeating what you've been saying all along. We just disagree which is totally fine. Cheers. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| thiophene wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Go back and read carefully. You'll find HuffPuff regularly badgering me for answers to questions that I have already stated are outside the scope what's involved (i.e. giving a break specifically for breastfeeding in an exam). One example of it is where he demands (yes demands) I reply to his question about whether a female doctor should be allowed to take a break during a consultation with a patient. Quite ludicrous. |
I've read them carefully. Reasonable discussions involve questions and answers. They go both ways, you can ask questions too (and you have...in case you haven't noticed). If you have an answer I don't see why you are being so adamant on not answering some questions for the sake of understanding. denying an answer looks as though you're 1) not taking this seriously (especially since your original objection to his "demands" was that this isn't a thesis paper ). The questions above seem reasonable to me and it's so easy to deny and say it has nothing to do with the case... but it's not helping the discussion. Or 2) can't think of one that'll maintain or strengthen your case. Nothing to be afraid/insulted of. If you think he/she is trolling you then ignore them. Otherwise don't waste our time with arguments that'll never hold up in a serious discussion. Anyways, I don't care anymore about your views. I've read them carefully, and you keep repeating what you've been saying all along. We just disagree which is totally fine. Cheers. |
I totally disagree with your view of how this "discussion" has played out. Once again, it would be helpful to have a mod weigh in.
Last edited by Bramble on Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| Once again, it would be helpful to have a mod weigh in. |
Why? Do mods represent the word of God? It isn't like anyone on this thread has violated the rules. What good would a mod do here? |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
You just caught me in my death-throes, Jongno!
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
What do you make of this?
| Quote: |
| Some breastfeeding mothers use commercially prepared infant formula as a supplement to their breast milk, which allows them the best of both worlds. They can offer their babies they undeniable advantages of breast milk while affording themselves the peace of mind that comes from knowing that their babies will have an alternate meal available, even if the supply of pre-pumped breast milk has been consumed. This is an especially useful strategy for mothers who must regularly leave their baby in someone else's care while they are at work. |
http://www.growingkids.co.uk/FormulaMilk.html |
Yes, I've already explained that I myself did this. I've also explained the problems with it. At the hospital, and at the clinic I attended, healthworkers warn against this. It works sometimes, but it can spell disaster for breastfeeding. It certainly didn't work out for my first baby.
And if you look at the site you've linked to, it contains advertising for formula. |
One thing that I find really depressing about all this is that this woman is training to be a doctor. And she had to fight the medical profession for this "special favour." Did anyone actually open up the link Huffdaddy provided earlier and see how future doctors are reacting to this case? These are the people we've entrusted with the health of future generations, right?
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thiophene
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| Once again, it would be helpful to have a mod weigh in. |
Why? Do mods represent the word of God? It isn't like anyone on this thread has violated the rules. What good would a mod do here? |
Confidence boost? |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| Once again, it would be helpful to have a mod weigh in. |
Why? Do mods represent the word of God? It isn't like anyone on this thread has violated the rules. What good would a mod do here? |
There's a dispute regarding who's behaving logically and who's being rude, repeating themselves and not listening. A mod could read through the thread and provide an "objective" opinion. What's wrong with asking a mod to settle a difference of opinion, before it turns into a big Otis-Mr. Gesler-whatever-name-he's-using-now soap opera? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I really don't want to waste anymore time going around in circles on this thread. People keep making the same points over and over and asking me the same questions ignoring my earlier responses. I also found myself acquiring a very dim view of you, HuffPuff, when you started asserting I had beliefs which I do not, and kept misrepresenting my position, despite my indications to the contrary. |
Do you mean the circles you keep talking around?
BB: This case isn't about her, it's about the principle.
HD: What principles of accommodation do you hold?
BB: I'm not writing a thesis here!!!
So you see, it's little wonder I've been left to take guesses and make assumptions as to what position you actually hold. If you'd take the time to clarify what it is you believe in, in principle, I wouldn't be left grabbing at straws.
I realize this subject may strike a little too close to home, and for that reason I excuse your lack of objectivity on the matter. What I don't excuse is your continued hypocrisy regarding the manner of discussion and your belief that you have somehow been treated unfairly.
Saving your philosophical principles, such as this:
| Quote: |
| I favour the Scandanavian attitude where the next generation are seen as society's responsiblility. In fact, that was the way it was throughout human history, until recently. Kids were reared by group effort. |
until the very end of the discussion certainly doesn't help. It would of undoubtedly helped to clarify your point of view, and assist in my understanding of your position. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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a medical examiners board showed indifference to the needs of a breastfeeding mother?
they should know better |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
a medical examiners board showed indifference to the needs of a breastfeeding mother?
they should know better |
I imagine the medical examiners board is more concerned about evaluating future doctors. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Atavistic wrote: |
| So BB, how much time do they need to pump? And you say three hours is too long to wait to pump? Then how, exactly, would you want pumping mothers to take this nine hr test? What would your schedule be? |
I've already answered this question. Take the time to read it. |
Once you said:
What's reasonable? An hour is reasonable, if you are doing an 8 hour block: half an hour after 2.5 hours, and another half hour after 3 hours. That strikes me as very reasonable. Anymore than that strikes me as unnecessary.
But then earlier you said you personally could pump in 20-30 mins ONLY if you were rushing and without any washing.
So.....she pumps and then doesn't even get to wash up or sterilize? What's the point? |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| And if you look at the site you've linked to, it contains advertising for formula. |
Oh so? I've looked at the site and have not found any advertisements for infant formula. One does see Google Adsense ads, which change frequently and which are not selected by web admins, but are contextually generated. Website operators have no direct hand in that. Or are you referring to their "Search Our Directory" feature where visitors enter their postcode to find merchants of various products/services located near them? If so, you'll also see a category for "Nursing Equipment" suppliers there. You dismiss what they say and imply they're in the pockets of the big bad formula makers, but I'm not seeing evidence of this. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Well, it's hard to prove anything beyond a doubt, especially where people's motives are concerned. But it seems a little naive to think that powerful people and obscene amounts of money don't influence people's access to information ... information that could help them make important, life-altering decisions.
NYT Expos�
Why do "conservative" thinkers tend to get into high positions in influential organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics? Why not another doctor who thinks more like Big_Bird? (They're out there.) Who was the editor of that parenting site, and why did he or she choose to run that article over a more "militant" one? The facts seem to support the militant position, don't they?
In another recent thread, people raised similar concerns about the pharmaceutical industry. There were valid points on both sides, but I think we have to be extremely skeptical of health-related information in general, and ask ourselves where it's really coming from. |
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thiophene
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
In another recent thread, people raised similar concerns about the pharmaceutical industry. There were valid points on both sides, but I think we have to be extremely skeptical of health-related information in general, and ask ourselves where it's really coming from. |
I couldn't agree more. |
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