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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I was not at all ticked-off. Just dumbfounded and now it is confirmed, by your own ignorance of what the benefits of coteaching are and why co-teaching is a model being implemented by public schools in Korea for language instruction.
I'm not going to drone on and point you to why you are wrong. As part of my job, I've written, studied, given workshops and made recommendation on coteaching. Take a look at both my Teaching Research folder http://www.esnips.com/web/TeachingResearch and my Professional Development folder available on www.ddd.batcave.net (scroll down and click on the left.)
I suggest you temper your language until you really know how effective coteaching can be. (and is researched and proven though yes, if you don't have a good professional relationship with your co-teacher it can be hell but this should be a rarity if the right steps are taken). Besides lowering student - teacher ratio, making for more effective planning, showing a communicative model for students, increasing teacher reflectiveness and teaching "desire", lowering the isolating factor of foreigners in other cultures (culture shock, practicalities helped with), increasing Korean teachers English fluency, exposing Korean teachers to alternative models of teaching.....okay, I've run out of breath. There are many more. Check out my ppt on this at link
http://www.slideshare.net/ddeubel/co-teaching-workshop/
I hope you refrain from simplifying teaching and your points about coteaching being self defeating are self-defeated themselves. Please read them again and see how really weak and "biased" they are....
DD |
I know you do a lot of PD work with Korean teachers but I'm guessing the ones with whom you've worked are, for the most part, not indicative of KETs in general, the reason being that most crap teachers wouldn't want to have their weaknesses exposed by taking a course with you. What you write above is mostly true for really good KETs, though even then I can see big advantages in higer-level students taking lessons with only a native speaker. However, when it comes to KETs who simply don't have what it takes to be teachers, there really is no advantage to anyone having them in the classroom. In the case of higher level students, they could be a really serious hindrence unless they were careful only to play the role of passive observer (i.e. be pretty much students themselves). There is simply no advantage to having an incompetent in your classroom. I've come to the conclusion that, when it comes to incompetent and / or inexperienced KETs, even for low-level and unmotivated students, it's better for an FT to teach solo even if he's more limited in the explanations he can give.
Consider a few things you mentioned:
- teacher ratio: unless the students are doing individual, pairs, or group work how does this really help. If I really wanted to make sure that your students didn't attempt much unrehearsed English I'd fill your classroom up with 20 Korean English teachers.
- more effective planning: of what? I can plan around a curriculum with KETs regardless of whether they're in my classroom.
- showing a communicative model for students: absolutely not with the majority of KETs I've met. I have two CTs I can do this with (out of 11 I've worked with at my school) and I'm actually lucky to have such a high ratio.
- increasing teacher reflectiveness and teaching "desire": 'student think you lesson very funny / not enough funny'.
- lowering the isolating factor of foreigners in other cultures: the last thing I want is to be mates outside work with someone I hate working with.
- increasing Korean teachers English fluency: it could. It could also decrease students' fluency if they think that even their teacher can't communicate with the foreigner.
- exposing Korean teachers to alternative models of teaching: yes, but so could videotapes.
I see what you're trying to get at, but I wonder if you really have a good appreciation of how much sheeer incompetency exists amongst KET (and it's not going to get any better if the younger ones with whom I've had to work are any indication). |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DD, why don't you recommend the thick skulled Korean administrators to separate the classrooms by students' english level, not by their grade level? |
First of all, that is just adminstratively impossible. Second of all, PUBLIC education has an agenda that just isn't purely "knowledge" based. It is based on understanding which is quite different than knowledge. That social agenda is the reason and a good one, students should not be seperated.
Further, I reject any notion that a hogwon or a P.S. is better. A classroom is better, whichever category it falls under. A good teacher should be able to teach a multi level class and all in all, it is the better model for younger learners.
Those teachers who want to view Korean teachers as incompetent don't understand one iota about the cultural factors affecting education. Nor do they help the cause of student learning in Korea. One might just as well make the case for the incompetence of untrained foreigners. In both cases, the arguement is senseless and just dead wrong. Gross.
You can point out all the exceptions you want. But coteaching works if set up properly. The problems start there and are slowly being addressed. For one - how many of you coteachers out there sat down with your Korean colleagues and filled out a coteaching questionnaire and discussed all the basic points of which you both have to navigate the coming school year. I bet very few.
good coteaching and classrooms just don't magically appear as the last two posters, seems to suggest.
DD |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Those teachers who want to view Korean teachers as incompetent don't understand one iota about the cultural factors affecting education. Nor do they help the cause of student learning in Korea. One might just as well make the case for the incompetence of untrained foreigners. In both cases, the arguement is senseless and just dead wrong. Gross.
You can point out all the exceptions you want. But coteaching works if set up properly. The problems start there and are slowly being addressed. For one - how many of you coteachers out there sat down with your Korean colleagues and filled out a coteaching questionnaire and discussed all the basic points of which you both have to navigate the coming school year. I bet very few.
good coteaching and classrooms just don't magically appear as the last two posters, seems to suggest.
DD |
I understand quite well some of the cultural factors interfering with puplic education. One of the worst is KETs so insecure that they feel uncomfortable having students address them in English because that's not how students should address a Korean teacher - that's a sure way for a KT to shoot himself in the foot off the bat when it comes to language instruction. Another is the general lack of dialogue and interaction that occurs in almost every subject taught in Korea.
However, the general incompetence is something that really has to be addressed - and for FTs as well as KETs. A foreigner who, after six months or a year, simply cannot build up posititve relationships with his students and co-workers (because without good relationships one just can't teach effectively in this country), should really find a different line of work. So should a KET who, after obtaining a masters degree in English education, has a level of English that the best she can is say "[giggle giggle] Can you ... [giggle] DBweeD pyayer ... giba me" when she wants to borrow the FT's DVD player. Would you please tell me what role a teacher like that would play in a FT's grade 3 academic HS classroom apart from perhaps taking a seat along with students and trying to learn what she missed out on a decade before? She certainly won't be playing much of a role in discipline when the same FT has to stop the students from running out of the classroom before coming to attention and bowing to her when he comes along to help her with a listening class she doesn't know how to teach. If she has computer skills she can fix the computer that's broken down 25% of the time or run back to the staffroom if there's something waegook forgot but that's about it.
The fact of the matter is that there's still no gate-keeper to ensure that everyone graduating with a degree in English education can actually speak English at least semi-fluently, and for that reason there will continue to be 'co-teachers' in higher level classes who can do practically nothing to enhance a communicative approach, but can nevertheless do a great deal to torpedo it.
Good co-teaching does not work unless both sides have the competence to make it work, and even then it would be a waste of resources for higher-level classes. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Good co-teaching does not work unless both sides have the competence to make it work, and even then it would be a waste of resources for higher-level classes. |
Why would it be a waste of resources? The flexibility provided with a co-teaching model, I don't think, can be measured that easily, and written off as a waste of resources. If the time is wasted then I would have to say it's a managment issue.
With high level classes, the bar for competence is of course going to be much higher. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| icnelly wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Good co-teaching does not work unless both sides have the competence to make it work, and even then it would be a waste of resources for higher-level classes. |
Why would it be a waste of resources? The flexibility provided with a co-teaching model, I don't think, can be measured that easily, and written off as a waste of resources. If the time is wasted then I would have to say it's a managment issue.
With high level classes, the bar for competence is of course going to be much higher. |
It's a waste of resources because it's one less English lesson block the KET could be teaching. If they're hiring a Korean basically to be in the same room as a FT when it's unnecessary they're wasting their resources. The grade three English teacher at my school, for instance, is making much better use of our school's resources by doing something productive in the staffroom instead of doing next to nothing in my classes. In a way it's also a waste of student resources. Why get the grade three English teacher to translate things for students who don't know when 30 grade 3 students have a larger collective vocabularly? Plus, the students will be more willing to play a helping role if figuring things out is up to them, instead of being spoon-fed everything by a teacher who's practical level of English is scarcely better than the top students. If you have a KETs in high-level classes the students will look to them for all the answers, which isn't good, and the teachers will afraid to participate much for fear of looking fooling in front of students. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Ybs,
Have you taught in a P.S. in the west, teaching a regular subject?
I don't think you have, given that the tone of your comments really doesn't indicate a very salient point -- teachers are teachers and you'll find incompetents everywhere. You're labeling is just that, culturally intolerant and I'll call you on it. You wouldn't dare say the same of an American/Canadian colleague if you had worked any length of time in a public school back home. I don't think there are any "incompetent" teachers. Undermotivated, overwhelmed? Yes. But each has their strengths and weaknesses and your own inability to look at a teacher through anything but your own "teacher coloured glasses" and subjective notions, reflects cultural branding and not a sound notion of what makes a teacher.
| Quote: |
| I understand quite well some of the cultural factors interfering with puplic education. One of the worst is KETs so insecure that they feel uncomfortable having students address them in English because that's not how students should address a Korean teacher - that's a sure way for a KT to shoot himself in the foot off the bat when it comes to language instruction. Another is the general lack of dialogue and interaction that occurs in almost every subject taught in Korea. |
I also don't think you have a proper idea about what it is like or what it takes to teach a language that is not your mother tongue. What you deem incompetence is your own misunderstanding and the projecting of your natural competency of the curriculum onto Korean teachers as an expectation. Ain't gonna happen. And not a standard by which to judge.
And no, I don't get the best teachers. All teachers are required to take training and professional development (unlike in Canada, where I come from). Some do find alternative methods to get around it but in know way am I judging and arriving at conclusions just through the teachers I teach. I also get out into the schools and teach in public schools. I meet Korean teachers and also hear their difficulties.....(which reminds me, I will edit out names and post a series of excellent comments by Korean teachers about the difficulties they are having in their teaching and what they wish would be changed in Korean education). Your sample size I suggest is rather small and that you take a lot of the negative comments that appear here as suggestive of the whole, is also wrong.
My own surveys of teachers show that fully 70% of coteachers are satisfied with their cotaught classroom and the problems for the most part are with a lack of planning time and administrative matters (class schedule / no own classroom / classroom environment and also holidays/apts etc....).
| Quote: |
| Good co-teaching does not work unless both sides have the competence to make it work, and even then it would be a waste of resources for higher-level classes. |
You also don't know about the differing models of coteaching. Even a Korean teacher who lacks English fluency is an equal partner in the classroom and the teaching. The dynamics just change and the roles taken by each change. As the Korean teacher has more control of the curriculum (fluency) then other models of coteaching can be options. See my ppt.
You speak of "waste of resources". The only waste of resources would be in a coteaching environment which hasn't been cultivated, set up properly. This I believe is a big problem and one that needs to be addressed. It is , slow but sure but thinking that it is just as simple as believing "that teacher could be teaching somewhere else" , is just administrative nonsense. A classroom is effective because of how well it is taught, not just merely from the number of students addressed or teachers present. What must be addressed is the methodology of Korean teachers, not just labeling well meaning teachers, "incompetent". As I suggested, part of the idea of co-teaching revolves around the notion of exposing Korean teachers to alternative models of instruction.
DD |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Location: at my wit's end
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
But each has their strengths and weaknesses and your own inability to look at a teacher through anything but your own "teacher coloured glasses" and subjective notions, reflects cultural branding and not a sound notion of what makes a teacher.
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Very good point. My coteacher and I have a running commentary on wearing "Good goggles" or "bad goggles" (which arose from my teaching him the word "beer goggles"). Many times, I'll comment that "the kids are unusually well-behaved today," to which he responds "They're the same as every other day, but your attitude towards them is better today."
Same goes for coteachers. I see them as companions, not adversaries, and we do our best to play to each others' strengths in the classroom, as well as try to have some kind of dialog going throughout the class so the students can hear *real* English being spoken.
For example, when teaching a lesson on can/can't, ask your coteacher if they can play basketball. If he says "Yes I can," ask the students "Can Mr. Kim play basketball?" etc. CTs are a great resource and not necessarily incompetent, they just have different strengths. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
You speak of "waste of resources". The only waste of resources would be in a coteaching environment which hasn't been cultivated, set up properly. This I believe is a big problem and one that needs to be addressed. It is , slow but sure but thinking that it is just as simple as believing "that teacher could be teaching somewhere else" , is just administrative nonsense.
DD |
This is what I was trying to get at. Two teachers working with each other and with the students on varying levels, from different perspectives, and all with different ideas/beliefs/experiences cannot be deemed a waste of resources: it's a chance for diversification, and I think that can be applied to any level in many different settings. |
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Tjames426
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: Re: How to use a Korean co-teacher properly in High School |
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| mikekim wrote: |
I work at a country high school. The staff is complaining that my class is too noisy and students are complaining that they are not participating enough. Fair enough, every teacher has this problem. So the principal has requested for next year that I have a co-teacher in-class. I know this is done a lot in middle school and elementary school, but is this a good idea for high school? This will solve the noisy problem but you can't make students who don't know how to speak English participate more.
So anyways they are taking suggestions, so should I use them simply as a tool to keep things quiet or should we hybridize the class and make it part of their curriculum. IE a regular class with tests and homework?
Any suggestions would be helpful. |
Suggestion
You need to discuss clearly what the Principal means by having a co-teacher in the room. Does this mean the co-teacher is taking over your lessons and instruction? Or, is the presence of a native adult suppose to pacify the students.
Do you work from an assigned curriculum or do you craft your own lesson planning? Do you have time to craft some interactive and diverse
activities in your lesson themes? These things will affect the discussion as to what the co-teacher will do to assist you.
Suggestions...?
1. Perhaps you should try to introduce more student centered activities? Also, please utilize the higher performing students in class to assist the ones who are needy. Learn to address the same material to the different levels of English in a classroom. For example, I might give a higher level student a "why" question in an exercise. I might have a lower student find the answer in the text. The goal is to raise the confidence of each student in learning English. While you teach the same lesson to all the students, you should apply the interaction individually based upon each learner's level.
3. What time of day do you instruct the students? Could be the time of day is a problem too. Korean students are overworked and lack sleep. They also have immense pressure to achieve from parents and others. There are times in which all students gab in Korean. Remember, they are teenagers!!! Do you remember when you were a teenager? All mouth...all the time? Instead of trying to stifle the yak yak...try to ultilize in your lessons and communication activities. I do. The Students love it when English activities play boy against girl...etc.
4. Please, do not take it personally. We know that Korean teenagers have little private time. I have middle school students who have no socialization skills and no real friends. All they do is schooling, study and classes. Occasionally, you may find some students go into a laughing or crying fit due to a lack of sleep. I've had classes or students go into giggles or crying for minutes. Sometimes they show hints of psychological problems due to pressure and etc... .
5. Hmm. Begin a class by asking the students a question. For example, an open ended question about what they did and where did they go for Chuseok? or...what did they do for Independence day? Favorite Holiday? Be patient with their answers. Some students will give one word answers. Some students will see it as a real opportunity to connect will you. Don't try to be a grammar hound and correct everything for them when they answer. The students will feel wonderful if you understand what they say - even if you don't...even though they say it badly or take forever to say it. It gives them confidence. They are teens....they need confidence.
Sorry for being so long with my ramblings. If there was something in there that might help...great. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Ybs,
Have you taught in a P.S. in the west, teaching a regular subject?
I don't think you have, given that the tone of your comments really doesn't indicate a very salient point -- teachers are teachers and you'll find incompetents everywhere. You're labeling is just that, culturally intolerant and I'll call you on it. You wouldn't dare say the same of an American/Canadian colleague if you had worked any length of time in a public school back home. I don't think there are any "incompetent" teachers. Undermotivated, overwhelmed? Yes. But each has their strengths and weaknesses and your own inability to look at a teacher through anything but your own "teacher coloured glasses" and subjective notions, reflects cultural branding and not a sound notion of what makes a teacher.
| Quote: |
| I understand quite well some of the cultural factors interfering with puplic education. One of the worst is KETs so insecure that they feel uncomfortable having students address them in English because that's not how students should address a Korean teacher - that's a sure way for a KT to shoot himself in the foot off the bat when it comes to language instruction. Another is the general lack of dialogue and interaction that occurs in almost every subject taught in Korea. |
I also don't think you have a proper idea about what it is like or what it takes to teach a language that is not your mother tongue. What you deem incompetence is your own misunderstanding and the projecting of your natural competency of the curriculum onto Korean teachers as an expectation. Ain't gonna happen. And not a standard by which to judge.
And no, I don't get the best teachers. All teachers are required to take training and professional development (unlike in Canada, where I come from). Some do find alternative methods to get around it but in know way am I judging and arriving at conclusions just through the teachers I teach. I also get out into the schools and teach in public schools. I meet Korean teachers and also hear their difficulties.....(which reminds me, I will edit out names and post a series of excellent comments by Korean teachers about the difficulties they are having in their teaching and what they wish would be changed in Korean education). Your sample size I suggest is rather small and that you take a lot of the negative comments that appear here as suggestive of the whole, is also wrong.
My own surveys of teachers show that fully 70% of coteachers are satisfied with their cotaught classroom and the problems for the most part are with a lack of planning time and administrative matters (class schedule / no own classroom / classroom environment and also holidays/apts etc....).
| Quote: |
| Good co-teaching does not work unless both sides have the competence to make it work, and even then it would be a waste of resources for higher-level classes. |
You also don't know about the differing models of coteaching. Even a Korean teacher who lacks English fluency is an equal partner in the classroom and the teaching. The dynamics just change and the roles taken by each change. As the Korean teacher has more control of the curriculum (fluency) then other models of coteaching can be options. See my ppt.
You speak of "waste of resources". The only waste of resources would be in a coteaching environment which hasn't been cultivated, set up properly. This I believe is a big problem and one that needs to be addressed. It is , slow but sure but thinking that it is just as simple as believing "that teacher could be teaching somewhere else" , is just administrative nonsense. A classroom is effective because of how well it is taught, not just merely from the number of students addressed or teachers present. What must be addressed is the methodology of Korean teachers, not just labeling well meaning teachers, "incompetent". As I suggested, part of the idea of co-teaching revolves around the notion of exposing Korean teachers to alternative models of instruction.
DD |
I use the word incompetent very freely because I've also been lucky enough to work with Korean co-teachers who are very competent indeed. Thankfully the two most competent co-teachers I've ever worked with are also the two with whom I currently co-teach all my middle school classes (though one can't always make it). In the past year-and-a-half both of them went away for a six-month training course, both were replaced by hopeless temps, and night-and-day doesn't even begin to describe the difference between working with someone who just 'gets it' and someone who doesn't.
Some teachers also have to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses. For instance, according to my bilingual Quebecois friend, I can speak French much better than one of his co-teachers could speak English. Now, there's NO WAY that I should be a French teacher, and I wouldn't consider becoming one until I knew that I was competent to speak the language fluently and confidently. I could lecture students *about* French in English, only using a few words of French or reading French out of a book, and perhaps make it really interesting. I could teach students how to set about translating French paragraphs that I had studied in advance. Perhaps I could also be a great homeroom teacher and help guide kids through life, as well as help plan great school events. But I'd still be an incompetent French teacher who should feel guilty for collecting a paycheque for 'teaching' French. I don't see what I could possibly do to help co-teach an advanced class with a Frenchman if the students were almost at the same level as me.
The fact of the matter is that Korea, like most countries, needs higher standards to determine who should be teaching their children. Just look at this forum, for example - at least 20% of the teachers who post here would be incompetent to teach a writing class. I worked with uni TAs who clearly laced the writing skills to be marking undergraduate papers and it used to drive me up the wall. I think that far to many teachers are applying the same low expectations and standards to their colleagues that they are to their students. Of course we have to work with what we've been given but if we play into the toleration of incompetency and lack of standards that plagues Korea's English educational system we will be doing it a considerable disservice indeed. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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This is an anecdote re: a middle school, not HS, co-teacher but it really illustrates the difference between teahcers who 'get it' and those who don't. Today I was talking with my (highly competent) MS co-teacher about the midterm and she asked me for a list of questions about things I've gone over for the students' dialogues that she can use with the students next week; then she'll select a few of them to put on the midterm. Wow - what a novel concept, eh? Perhaps if the school tests the students on the material I teach them they'll take it more seriously.
I'm currently teaching our grade 2s with her, and in the two terms prior to this current one the students in that year had successive temp numbties I tried to get this idea across to. The first one just couldn't understand enough English to have any idea what I was saying. She asked me some questions about the midterms and may have been open to the idea but I had no idea what she was trying to say. I tried suggesting it to the second one but it just went in one ear and out the other. I offered to proof-read his midterm but I guess he prefered to take the risk of making mistakes the students would notice and complain about. I offered to look over it to check if it was at an appropriate level, but no - and the average mark turned out to be 52%. Well, is it any wonder that if half the students think they can't pass they'll be far more likely to give up (and I've never seen so many students stop taking middle school English seriously as I did when he was their main teacher).
Really, DD, if you could merely convince all the KETs you see to start including what FTs teach in part of a GRADED curriculum you'll be accomplishing a lot more than getting co-teachers active in classrooms where a CT may be the very last thing a FT wants. |
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