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superdave
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: over there ----->
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 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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to go the 'sam harris' angle ...
not believing in a god doesn't make you an athiest ... it means you have no belief.
not being a stamp collector doesn't make you an antistampcollectorist.
initially i rejected harris' arguments about not using the word athiesm. however, the more i read, the more logic i see in it. i think that athiesm being a club is just as dangerous as catholicism or islam. it allows other groups to easily pigeonhole you and create convenient stereotypes.
and, it seems to me, somewhat ludicrous to create a club (or have conventions, or hold meetings) about what you don't believe.
i understand agnosticism though ... i think it's deeply human to wonder if there's a greater being out there, something that gave a spark of life to humanity. it's sometimes hard to grasp that we are here due to a billion freak scientific coincidences.
so agnostics have a fair point ... it feels like there's more to our existence, but none of the answers put forward are satisfactory. |
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Masta_Don
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Hyehwa-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| superdave wrote: |
and, it seems to me, somewhat ludicrous to create a club (or have conventions, or hold meetings) about what you don't believe.
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Especially when it bands the opposition together. Easier to define something by what it's not. "We're not those dull-as-mud, authoritian, father-figure-needing fundies, we're atheists!" "We're not those dirt-worshipping, ass-fucking smug heathens, we're Christians!"
The only way out is to ignore. Apathestic is where it's out. Don't care one way or another. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The whole point of being atheist is so you don't have to pay membership dues to anyone. Well, one of the better points anyway. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| For me, being agnostic means not really caring. I have better things to do than worry about what I can't prove. If there is a God and he will damn me to hell for not believing in the Easter bunny (which there is more proof of), then I don't think I really want to spend eternity with him. I live a good life and I will continue to do so being who I am, not worrying about some stupid old book or that there isn't a God. Along the same lines, I have no proof there isn't a God and see no reason why I should believe that. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Agnostics have it best! they are not saying there isnt a god, and they are not saying there is.. they are not sure.. as we should be!
there is not enough evidence in our life time to make a choice yet..
atheists want to say NOWAY! then go for it..
if I told you 400 years ago, that we would go to the moon or we would one day fly across the world! you would tell me IM STUPID! and CRAZY!
well atheists! maybe there is a god! the evidence just hasnt surfaced yet!
I aint jumping the GUN and saying there is no god! |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
there is not enough evidence in our life time to make a choice yet..
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There is enough evidence to rule out pretty well every earthly religion I think. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
there is not enough evidence in our life time to make a choice yet..
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There is enough evidence to rule out pretty well every earthly religion I think. |
tell that to the 5 billion people who think otherwise |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
| Will we get to perform complicated skits to a theme of The 120 Days of Sodom? |
If that means you'll be crawling on all fours while scarfing down doggie doo and thumbtacks, might be worth a looksee. |
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Masta_Don
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Hyehwa-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| For me, being agnostic means not really caring. |
That's called apatheism. |
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htrain
Joined: 24 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: |
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So I read on Wikipedia that in America " a private survey conducted in 2001 revealed 76.7 percent of American adults identified themselves as Christian, down from 86.4 percent in 1990. "
I'm not saying we're all American and I'm not saying we represent our entire populations, but I know America and Aus and probably the others were "founded on strong Christian beliefs" as John Howard put it when he told Muslims to shut up or go home.
I myself am not religious, nor is any person I've met here teaching. Are English teachers in Korea naturally irreligious heathens? 76.7 and 86.4% are big numbers!
I notice I jive with other foreigners here quite well. In Japan and China it was the opposite.. I think because there are French people there. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
there is not enough evidence in our life time to make a choice yet..
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There is enough evidence to rule out pretty well every earthly religion I think. |
tell that to the 5 billion people who think otherwise |
No thanks. I know what they do to heretics. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
Agnostics have it best! they are not saying there isnt a god, and they are not saying there is.. they are not sure.. as we should be!
there is not enough evidence in our life time to make a choice yet..
atheists want to say NOWAY! then go for it..
if I told you 400 years ago, that we would go to the moon or we would one day fly across the world! you would tell me IM STUPID! and CRAZY!
well atheists! maybe there is a god! the evidence just hasnt surfaced yet!
I aint jumping the GUN and saying there is no god! |
Agnostics appear to be unsure whilst many atheists appear to think god unlikely. Even Dawkins and Russell claimed not to be 100% certain. Most atheists I've met and read about claimed that the existence of god or gods is as close to NOWAY as you can get(maybe not in those words). And most of these are waiting for the evidence just like you. So please come to the party. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| htrain wrote: |
I'm not saying we're all American and I'm not saying we represent our entire populations, but I know America and Aus and probably the others were "founded on strong Christian beliefs" as John Howard put it when he told Muslims to shut up or go home. |
I'd be careful about making that claim on a thread choca with atheists.
Article 11 Treaty of Tripoli
and don't forget those deist founding fathers. I don't really know about the foundation of Oz, sorry. Not too sure if the UK ever was actually founded.[/url] |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| htrain wrote: |
I'm not saying we're all American and I'm not saying we represent our entire populations, but I know America and Aus and probably the others were "founded on strong Christian beliefs" as John Howard put it when he told Muslims to shut up or go home. |
I'd be careful about making that claim on a thread choca with atheists.
Article 11 Treaty of Tripoli
and don't forget those deist founding fathers. I don't really know about the foundation of Oz, sorry. Not too sure if the UK ever was actually founded.[/url] |
When America and Australia and pretty well every other English-speaking country was founded, they were in a more primitive era. It's a fact of life that the past of humanity is filled with superstition and religion. It doesn't mean we must continue those superstitions, or even honour them. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| wo buxihuan hanguoren wrote: |
| Flash Ipanema wrote: |
| Are Agnostics allowed to join? |
*beep* no. There is either a god, or there is not. Insecure agnostics that can't decide will get the boot I'm afraid. Man up or ship out, toots. |
Agnosts are the smarter people.
They say you cannot prove or disprove the existence of a god, as such, the conclusion is that it doesn't matter whether there is a God or not. |
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