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spirit2110
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Location: I am with Dan Druff. Nice guy, you should meet him.
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 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| As a newbie who just went through this whole diploma verification process I can say it sucks. But, what's the point in complaining now? Fakers definitely messed up the system but what's done is done - if you have the proper credentials then you should have no problems. |
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tomwaits
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: PC Bong
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
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In our own countries they (illegal workers) would be called economic refugees and would generally have our sympathy....Crossing borders in search of a better life is accepted--even recommended these days...
Asian countries are getting richer and it's not science fiction to see the day when Westerners sneak in in search of a better life.
E-2 hoders and the no-degree crowd are separate issues. I would class them more with the "3-D " workers...
cheers
I have smoken,,, |
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anyway
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
| anyway wrote: |
| Ahh, yes, but YOU'RE are not like THOSE foreigners, right Cubanlord? No respect, eh Rodney? |
I'm surprised you went ahead and made an assumption without even asking why I would post something that came out of left field. You have no idea what I meant by the post or what drove me to write that post did you?   Troll! |
Nice come back. Avoid the substance of the post and call me a troll. How adult...
I made no assumptions about why you posted. You posted to moan and groan cause you had a bad day. Had to prove yourself again. Poor lad.
My post was asking you 'why you have to prove yourself in the first place'. Because Koreans believe that someone with a piece of paper AND white skin is a better teacher than those without those two 'qualifications'. This is the first reason that you must prove your degree. Try to follow the argument.
Then, they ask you to prove it again and again because they don't trust foreigners. The fakers make it worse, sure, but the underlying cause is they don't believe you (or me).
Let me make it clear. If immi checks a degree and verifies it properly, then someone 'finds out' it is fake - whose fault is it? Ours or immi's? Get my point? Don't fall for scapegoating. You have a hard time here because of the Koreans, not the fakers. Ask yourself: why don't they believe me (again and again)?? |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| anyway wrote: |
| cubanlord wrote: |
| anyway wrote: |
| Ahh, yes, but YOU'RE are not like THOSE foreigners, right Cubanlord? No respect, eh Rodney? |
I'm surprised you went ahead and made an assumption without even asking why I would post something that came out of left field. You have no idea what I meant by the post or what drove me to write that post did you? Troll! |
Nice come back. Avoid the substance of the post and call me a troll. How adult... |
That's funny. I thought I addressed exactly what you said. Did you not re-read your post? You don't have to be angry just because you were proven wrong...AGAIN.
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| I made no assumptions about why you posted. |
Yes you did. You assumed that I was posting this because I thought I was 'better' than those whom do not have a degree. That is exactly what you said. Should I quote you and make the letters bigger so that it is easier for you to read?
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| Had to prove yourself again. Poor lad. |
You're a hypocrite.
You say "how adult" and then you come up with this award-winning insult? Did you not read what you first wrote? "No respect, eh Rodney?"Pot calling the kettle black? Wait...do you understand that? Or, shall I explain it in laymen terms for you?
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| My post was asking you 'why you have to prove yourself in the first place'. |
No it wasn't. No where did you mention anything of the sort nor was it implied.
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| Because Koreans believe that someone with a piece of paper AND white skin is a better teacher than those without those two 'qualifications'. This is the first reason that you must prove your degree. Try to follow the argument. |
This is an argument? Me thinks not! You asked a simple question, therefore you got a simple answer. Now, you want to try and change what you said into something different. You can't. It's called accountability Internet pal.
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| The fakers make it worse, sure, but the underlying cause is they don't believe you (or me). |
You agreed with me. So what's your point in arguing? Obviously YOU are the one that has something to prove coming on here and arguing with someone who shares the same point of view.
Listen Anyways,
You have to understand something about me. I debate a lot, and when I do, I make sure I have facts to support my position. I have been trained this way and therefore conduct myself accordingly. If you want to debate with me, fine. However, don't you think you should debate on a topic where our views are different, not on a topic where we share the same view as you stated in the above quote?
You're alright anyways (not like you care what I think of you 'anyway'). Although, you really should formulate a better plan if you want to debate with me. I'm not like some of the posters here, that is, I don't debate with mere conjecture.
We agree, I still don't understand why you are arguing a moot point. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Treefarmer wrote: |
| i don't see how a degree makes someone a better teacher |
???????? 
If it's an education, English or language related degree, it definitely helps!
If it's not one of those degrees, it still helps because it required the person to be in an educational environment for a long, continuous time AND understand the lessons that are being taught. It requires the person to think on more-complex levels and converse with other students and teachers. Even if it is through observation and being a student, it causes a person to witness teaching methods. We all remember what our teachers did that worked, and what didn't.
Sure, someone without a degree could teach English in Korea, but on the whole, degrees make people more qualified and experienced in education. |
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anyway
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for making your own superiority even clearer. Couldn't have asked for more. I'm a believer!
In your first post, you claimed that the fakers are making your life hard(er). You seemed to think that the fakers are the reason why immi is checking your degree (or checking it multiple times).
I believe that the Koreans ask for a degree because they believe diploma=teaching ability AND they check degrees because they don't believe the degrees are real when we submit them.
I also suggested that the ONLY reason for Koreans recheck the degree is not because of the fakers but because immi doesn't check properly the first time (and/or keep accurate records), and again they don't believe us. How does multiple checks have to do with fakers? If they verified it once, it should be verified, right?
Apparently, you believe that immi must check the same degree multiple times because of the fakers. I think they must check multiple times because of the immi office's incompetence and distrust of foreigners.
I think that fakers do provide a convenient scapegoat for the above circus, but they are not the cause or even a large part. I think when you blame fakers for your troubles with Korean immigration, you're taking the bait.
Think about it - what's the best way to get rid of the fakers (besides having a vetting process that is effective)? Piss the foreigners off and get them to snitch on each other.
I tried to compare this situation to other 'foreigner blaming foreigner' debates - those who blame foreigners who don't speak Korean, who get drunk and act the fool, who screw around the students, etc. If those activities were to stop suddenly and completely, do you think the Koreans would somehow change their minds about us?? The stuff on TV makes it worse, but it is not the cause of the Korean mindset or policies towards foreigners. It is a reflection of that mindset, which sets the policies.
I compared the two situations because I think the same principle is at work in both. Koreans are also guilty of these same behaviors (except not speaking Korean), but those behaviors are only 'bad' when committed by foreigners.
Somehow many foreigners have come to accept the argument that if the few (foreigners who exhibit poor or illegal behavior) stopped doing these things, all of us would somehow experience better treatment and more respect. This is a very very weak argument, but I think it is the same one you are using to start this thread. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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You've made some interesting comments which I feel warrant some feedback:
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| Thanks for making your own superiority even clearer. Couldn't have asked for more. I'm a believer! |
It isn't a matter of me trying to appear 'superior' to you or anybody. Rather, it's a matter of fact, of what was written that I am holding you accountable for. You acted like an ass and then tried to turn it around like I was the 'bad guy' or something. You were a hypocrite. Plain and simple.
| anyway wrote: |
In your first post, you claimed that the fakers are making your life hard(er). You seemed to think that the fakers are the reason why immi is checking your degree (or checking it multiple times). |
I did and still do. Because of those with fake or no degrees, I have to be subjected to continuous harassment (i.e. constantly wasting MY time to answer stupid questions that could have been avoided had others not tried to work here ILLEGALLY! YES ILLEGALLY!). Korea, however much I think of them negatively, would never "create" something such as the checks unless there wasn't a provocation. Why would immi. waste their time checking degrees if every single English teacher here was legtimate? Furthermore, new teachers come into Korea all the time, both legitmate and not. They perform these checks because they KNOW some illegals are creeping through. Sure, they should do their job and do it well. They suck at it and it has been well documented. If you want to read more about it so that you can be a bit less ignorant on the subject, try reading one of my articles. Here, I will point you in the right direction:
Sabio, R. (2007, August). English Education in Korea: It�s Time for Accountability. The Korea Times. Retrieved from http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2007/08/181_7525.html
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| Think about it - what's the best way to get rid of the fakers (besides having a vetting process that is effective)? Piss the foreigners off and get them to snitch on each other. |
Wrong. The best way to get rid of those that break the rules is to make the punishments harder, in other words, jail time, major fines, etc. The more severe the punishment, the less likely someone is to commit the crime.
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| I compared the two situations because I think the same principle is at work in both. Koreans are also guilty of these same behaviors (except not speaking Korean), but those behaviors are only 'bad' when committed by foreigners. |
Not true. Look at how they are holding their own accountable. Look at the amount of professors, curators, musicians, etc. have lost their jobs and most likely their future because of their degree forgery. It just so happened that they couldn't just blame the Koreans. They had to blame everyone as well (this point, we both agree on).
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| Somehow many foreigners have come to accept the argument that if the few (foreigners who exhibit poor or illegal behavior) stopped doing these things, all of us would somehow experience better treatment and more respect. This is a very very weak argument, but I think it is the same one you are using to start this thread. |
It is not a very weak argument. On the contrary, it is a strong one. The point is that if there wasn't forgery, there would be no argument against forgery would there? Sure, they might try to find something else wrong with us (isn't that the nature of the beast?), but, my point is, that, it wouldn't focus on forgery because forgery wouldn't exist. |
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SHANE02
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
| Treefarmer wrote: |
| i don't see how a degree makes someone a better teacher |
lol. That isn't the point I am making and yet people keep on assuming it is.
This is the reason why I made the comment I did (earlier):
It turns out that the Ministry of Ed. is telling the schools to ask their teacher/s for verification so that they can compare the information given to what immigration has on record. I was ticked, earlier, because this is the third time my wife and I have had to answer questions regarding the validity of our education (avg. once a year now).
I couldn't help to think that if people didn't come to Korea with fake degrees or with NO degrees at all, that the Korean government wouldn't both those that are here legitmately. That is why I wrote what I wrote. I never said those without a degree are not good teachers. I said they are making it difficult for people like me because people like me (i.e. those with degrees) have to constantly be subjected to these verifications and inconvienced over and over and over again. Sure, it's only a few seconds out of my day. However, I don't like it and am tired of it. Again, they wouldn't do it if everyone here was legitimate.
THAT, ladies and gentlemen, was my point, not what you were 'assuming'. |
maybe I'm wrong, but I think the latest "crackdown" is because of Koreans with fake degrees, not foreigners. It's just easier to blame foreigners. |
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anyway
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Well, thanks for keeping the debate above the belt. I appreciate being called an ass, ignorant, etc. You sure know your facts. Besides info about me, what other 'facts' have you brought into this discussion if I might ask?
Also, thanks for refering me to your own article (very modest of you)which I had read before. Apparently I didn't learn much from it. I will writhe in a frenzy of anticipation for your next treatise in that highly selective and authoratative publication!
You said "Forgery exists so people check for it." "If every teacher in Korea was legitimate, they wouldn't check degrees." Do you see ANY contradiction there? So, if every teacher were legitimate, the immi would stop verifying degrees (again and again) altogether?
Just curious, how many Koreans do you think they've caught with fake degrees? What percentage of Koreans has the Korean government checked for fake degrees? (How would we define 'fake' degree in the Korean context anyhow? Nevermind.) Now compare that number/percentage for foreign teachers. Are you suggesting that they are even remotely similar?
The perpetual re-verification of degrees which have already been verified is absurd on the face of it. It is part of a witch hunt that makes political hay (a la Lee Myung-bak). Don't take the bait!
From my perspective, if someone can earn a few thousand dollars and all it costs me is a few extra questions from immi, no problem. But then I am just an ignorant azz, not a highly respectable, published, debate legend like you, sir.
"Why would immigration waste their time if every teacher were legit?"
Why do they insist on wasting their time checking someone they already vetted? Incompetence. |
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shapeshifter
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not too concerned either way, but I thought I'd take a moment to say that that Korea Times article isn't particularly well written. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| anyway wrote: |
Well, thanks for keeping the debate above the belt. I appreciate being called an ass, ignorant, etc. You sure know your facts. Besides info about me, what other 'facts' have you brought into this discussion if I might ask?
Also, thanks for refering me to your own article (very modest of you)which I had read before. Apparently I didn't learn much from it. I will writhe in a frenzy of anticipation for your next treatise in that highly selective and authoratative publication!
You said "Forgery exists so people check for it." "If every teacher in Korea was legitimate, they wouldn't check degrees." Do you see ANY contradiction there? So, if every teacher were legitimate, the immi would stop verifying degrees (again and again) altogether?
Just curious, how many Koreans do you think they've caught with fake degrees? What percentage of Koreans has the Korean government checked for fake degrees? (How would we define 'fake' degree in the Korean context anyhow? Nevermind.) Now compare that number/percentage for foreign teachers. Are you suggesting that they are even remotely similar?
The perpetual re-verification of degrees which have already been verified is absurd on the face of it. It is part of a witch hunt that makes political hay (a la Lee Myung-bak). Don't take the bait!
From my perspective, if someone can earn a few thousand dollars and all it costs me is a few extra questions from immi, no problem. But then I am just an ignorant azz, not a highly respectable, published, debate legend like you, sir.
"Why would immigration waste their time if every teacher were legit?"
Why do they insist on wasting their time checking someone they already vetted? Incompetence. |
I never called you an ass, I said you were acting like one. There is a big difference. Try understanding what you read. Second, you are ignorant and have shown so through your various posts in this topic. For example, ""Forgery exists so people check for it." "If every teacher in Korea was legitimate, they wouldn't check degrees." Exactly. If every teacher was legitmate, they wouldn't keep verifying the degrees over and over again. No problem = no solution (however assinine the solution may be)Again, please read the previous posts and UNDERSTAND what is being discussed. That way, you don't come off looking like a donkey for the upteenth time!
Modest, no, I'd say confident. See, I am the type of person that when I am wrong, I say I am wrong, learn from the experience,grow, and move on. I don't have this unnerving, unrelenting sense of insecurity that I HAVE to be right and that's that. I know I am not the brightest bulb in the box here on Dave's (I've met many a Dave's perusers and I must say, they are an intelligent bunch); I also know that I am not the dumbest either.
The fact is that I have written a lot and have researched a lot. I'd even venture to say a lot more than you (given what I can gather from your posts). You know where my list of publications lies, where is yours? You know my credentials, where are yours? My point exactly. I am confident, perhaps a bit arrogant. But, I know where I stand.
I find it interesting how you mock the very news source you read on a daily basis (I must say, they did a bad job 'editing' the article...I wasn't too impressed with their efforts as they screwed up some basic stuff). But, this is what happens when you get published - people often adjust things because they feel sometimes it helps (when often said times really hurt). If it isn't worth much, then why waste your time reading it? I mean, it must be below you. Regardless, you can think what you want to think about where I am published (it'll be interesting to see your reaction after this coming week....and figure it out because I don't care to continue this pissing contest).
I can't help that your over sense of insecurity is coming out in this thread and it is blinding you to such an extent that you can no longer understand a simple sentence. That's something you have to deal with.
You give me nothing but conjecture, I give you relevant facts, then all you do is make fun of me? You are a piece of work (much like many others here on Daves). Try educating yourself a bit more before attempting to argue with someone that obviously has a leg up on you in this thread.
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| Well, thanks for keeping the debate above the belt. |
My friend, you were the one that started this contest; read your first entry.
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You sure know your facts. Besides info about me, what other 'facts' have you brought into this discussion if I might ask?
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I do. THank you for reminding me of something I already know. Regarding the original post, there is no win. Haven't you seen that yet? Both of us are going back and forth trying to understand the mind of immi. That isn't going to happen because we don't really know the answer. Why keep arguing?
I don't mind keeping the debate above the belt. I wish you would have thought about that before starting this crap. I'm sure you have seen my previous posts/debates. I usually don't "go below the belt" unless it gets personal. |
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anyway
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Quite right. I'm afraid I made a terrible mistake, not knowing who I was messing with. I will be more careful in the future.
This debating that you do regularly - Is that with The Urban Myth? Is anyone other than your wife present?
For your fact file: I don't know where your list of publications is. And I don't read that newspaper regularly. I have my own 'advanced degree' and 10 years experience in case you were wondering.
Just remember, the first time the immigration checks your degree, it's because of the fakers. (Did you complain at that time?) After that, it's all about the Korean system of organization.
That is all. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| anyway wrote: |
Quite right. I'm afraid I made a terrible mistake, not knowing who I was messing with. I will be more careful in the future.
This debating that you do regularly - Is that with The Urban Myth? Is anyone other than your wife present?
For your fact file: I don't know where your list of publications is. And I don't read that newspaper regularly. I have my own 'advanced degree' and 10 years experience in case you were wondering.
Just remember, the first time the immigration checks your degree, it's because of the fakers. (Did you complain at that time?) After that, it's all about the Korean system of organization.
That is all. |
Urban Myth? My wife? LOL. no. not quite (I thought TUM was a male). you can find my list on my site. Yes, I have complained every time after the first authentication over 3 years ago. I agree with you, the Korean system is a joke (reference the article I wrote and an uncountable amount of others written by others on this topic). |
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whatever
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Location: Korea: More fun than jail.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
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They'd just find something else to whine about...we've got suspect haicuts, we hang around our 'own', we speak English too much and too loudly in public, we don't understand Korean 'culture', we screw local chicks (whoops, they're already on top of that one), we blow our noses, we have intimidating eyes, we don't play Warcraft, we don't recognize Korean 'achievements' enough, we disparage kimchi, we're loud in our dwellings, we smell bad (i.e., we don't smell like kimchi), we don't care about harmony, we hit on our co-teachers (whoops, I didnt' know saying 'Good Morning' was shady), we don't acknowledge friendly greetings of 'Hey!' in the street, we don't beckon to adjoshis commanding us to not cross our legs in the empty subway, we don't pronounce English words correctly, our Korean pronunciation isn't perfect, we blog, we...
Koreans really need to get over themselves and be cool. Thank god I know some cool ones. |
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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Go home�don�t come here! Yes, that�s right |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
| I am talking to those here with fake degrees and those that are here with no degrees! You are screwing stuff up for those of us that are here legitimately. Why is it that you can't just follow simple rules? Also, you are giving me a freaking headache. Get lost. Put in your time just like the rest of us with degrees/certifications. Sheesh! |
i don't really know what you hoped to accomplish with this. do you really think the fake-degree-holders are reading this and then thinking 'oh crap... i'm making cubanlord's life a little less convenient. i'd better hop on the first plane out of here.'? |
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