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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: ... |
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| I know way more people who've left Korea for Japan than people who've left Japan for Korea. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: Japan vs Korea |
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| I know way more people who've left Korea for Japan than people who've left Japan for Korea. |
So why have the JET program figures been steadily declining for the past 5 years, whereas numbers in Korea have increased? (5,508 'Jet' Japan positions in 2006, down from a peak of 6,273 in 2002. Attendance figures at Private Schools across Japan are also declining).
Source: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/07/21/is-japan-getting-bored-with-english-lets-hope-so/ |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Japan vs Korea |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
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| I know way more people who've left Korea for Japan than people who've left Japan for Korea. |
(5,508 in 2006).
So why have the JET program figures been steadily declining for the past 5 years, whereas Korea has increased? |
It's because several prefectures have opted out of hiring from JET, instead hiring their ALT's from private recruiting companies such as Interac. This has caused JET's market share to decline.
In other words it has nothing do with what you think it does. Way more people leave Korea for Japan than vice versa (at least who I've talked to), for obvious reasons. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Japan vs Korea |
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Agreed (mostly). I just finished reading the entire thread in that link, & Jet only have 20% of the market in Kanto, eg. But I also spotted this:
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| I definitely agree that interest in English (in Japan) is declining dramatically. Just speaking from personal observations, I�ve seen numerous small eikaiwas go out of business in the last 5 years. I hardly ever see anyone coming or going from the NOVA branch by my place |
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...which appears to contradict any claims that overall numbers of ESL teachers in Japan are increasing. Anyone got a link to accurate & current stats? |
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little mixed girl
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Japan vs Korea |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| The Canadian I spoke to was in Kyushu, not Tokyo. And many country towns in Japan are still lacking central heating, kotatsu, & air conditioners. There are many schools outside Tokyo. One thing I really hated about Japan was the pc keyboards. The '&' is not on the 8 key but on the 6, the upper case apostrophe is not with the " key, near the enter key, the underscore key is not on the zero key at top, the @ key is not on the '2' key. In short, the keys are all over the place, & it's really hard to readjust, when you're used to using Australian & South Korean configured keys like I have been, for the past 10-15 years. |
uhh...i'm not living in tokyo.
and, if you are talking about schools please say that you are talking about schools.
no, there would be NO kotatsu in a school, and no AC or heat either.
if you read my post i said that most homes in japan don't have central heating. and that newer apartments are being built with central heating or heated floors.
the japanese keyboard is not that different from the ones in the US.
just like you adjusted to the korean one, others adjust to the japanese one...
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They use no insulation. The walls of their houses are like balsawood. You freeze your a$$ off all winter and pay obscene electricity bills all year round. Yay.
3.5 years in Aomori prefecture and I have no desire to ever set food in Japan again. |
there is no insulation, and it does suck.
how much were you paying for electricity?
i ran my AC all night, every day this past august and i didn't crack 5,000 yen...
maybe it depends on the place.
[edit]
from what i hear, places that went with interac, are starting to go back to JET. it was basically costing them about the same amount of money, plus with JET you have stuff from CLAIR. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: Korea vs Japan |
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"little mixed girl" originally mentioned Tokyo. And kotatsu.
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| I was in JET beginning 2006 and the tokyo orientation was fine. |
So if you weren't in Tokyo, where were you?
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uhh...i'm not living in tokyo. and, if you are talking about schools please say that you are talking about schools.
no, there would be NO kotatsu in a school, and no AC or heat either.
if you read my post i said that most homes in japan don't have central heating. and that newer apartments are being built with central heating or heated floors. |
The posts I've seen complaining about lack of heating in Japan generally referred to older style accomodation out in the country, or in regional towns. Not newer style apartments in the major cities. But perhaps they were whining about the lack of insulation in schools as well? Why don't you do a search, & ask them by pm, if you really must know?
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| the japanese keyboard is not that different from the ones in the US. |
I wouldn't know. I've never been to the US. Australian keyboards (which I've been using since 1987, btw), are configured the same as Korean keyboards.
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| just like you adjusted to the korean one, others adjust to the japanese one... |
There was no adjustment necessary. The 2 (Korea & Australia) are almost identical. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Japan vs Korea |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| ...which appears to contradict any claims that overall numbers of ESL teachers in Japan are increasing. Anyone got a link to accurate & current stats? |
I don't have any official stats, but given what a joke so many eikawas are, such as Nova (which is in big trouble now), it may be safe to assume that many Japanese students are becoming disillusioned to wasting their money on that crap. Especially with the publicity around Nova more and more people are cluing into what a total sham it is.
Either way it has little to do with the teachers. If there are less teachers then it's only because there are less jobs. The English teaching market remains quite saturated (as it's been for years), everyone and their dog wants to head to Japan to teach. That's why crappy companies like Nova and Gaba can get away with paying the low salaries that they do, the lure of Japan still remains strong.
| little mixed girl wrote: |
| from what i hear, places that went with interac, are starting to go back to JET. it was basically costing them about the same amount of money, plus with JET you have stuff from CLAIR. |
Interac is another worthless parasite company that deserves to be stamped out. They receive contracts from BOEs (typically ~$5000) from which they pay the teacher a paltry amount (it was ~$2200 last time I checked - even less than Nova) and keep the rest... Total waste of tax dollars and a big rip off for the teachers. It makes no sense to me why any BOEs would choose a private company like Interac (which does a poor job anyway), when JET is a gov't initiative.
Last edited by pastis on Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: Korea vs Japan |
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| Thanks, pastis. I may even consider a contract in Japan in 2009. Most schools there I applied to last year, appear to prefer prior teaching experience. I'll keep an eye on the Japan job market in the meantime. Hopefully, it will improve over the next 12 months. |
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little mixed girl
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Korea |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
The Canadian I spoke to attended the 200[b]6 'Jet' induction. Obviously it's gone downhill in the past 5-6 years.[/b]
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what you called "jet induction" is officially called "Tokyo Orientation".
http://www.jetprogramme.org/e/current/conferences/tokyo_ori.html
i, along with anyone who attends the JET program, has orientation in tokyo, thus the name tokyo orientation.
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| Finally, because of earthquakes, the wiring in Japan is spartan, & I've seen many teachers in Japan complaining about freezing in winter, & no aircon in summer. |
i responded to this.
YOU responded with:
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| The Canadian I spoke to was in Kyushu, not Tokyo. And many country towns in Japan are still lacking central heating, kotatsu, & air conditioners. There are many schools outside Tokyo. One thing I really hated about Japan was the pc keyboards. |
the one that mentioned schools was you, not me.
if you are going to argue with me about something, at least make an effort to remember what you typed.
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| The posts I've seen complaining about lack of heating in Japan generally referred to older style accomodation out in the country, or in regional towns. Not newer style apartments in the major cities. But perhaps they were whining about the lack of insulation in schools as well? Why don't you do a search, & ask them by pm, if you really must know? |
in case you, again, misread what i wrote; i clearly stated that MOST apartments in japan have NO centralized heating.
i also pointed out that NEWER apartments are getting centralized heating. i never said that most people on JET were in newer apartments.
i go to "living in japan" related forums, i live in japan.
the "lack of heating" most likely refers to "centralized heating". when i talked with my mom last winter i said "there's no heat here, all i have is an air conditioner, a kotatsu and a space heater for heat."
unless something has changed, we don't use air conditioners for heat in the US.
and finally, i wouldn't know what australian computers look like because i don't use them.
the keyboards in japan and korea have some keys that are placed differently from the US, but they aren't so different that a person would never be able to use them.
difficulty using a keyboard in japan doesn't seem like a good reason to go to korea, but, whatever. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Korea vs Japan |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Thanks, pastis. I may even consider a contract in Japan in 2009. Most schools there I applied to last year, appear to prefer prior teaching experience. I'll keep an eye on the Japan job market in the meantime. Hopefully, it will improve over the next 12 months. |
There are plenty of good jobs around if you're qualified, although the turn-over rate can be low, so sometimes it's just a matter of luck/good timing. Anyway, I would definitely avoid the bigger chains if possible (obviously Nova, but also Geos, Aeon and the like) as you will just end up working longer hours and making less. I would never work for one of the 'big 4' myself, but some people use them as a springboard before moving on, esp. if they have no prior experience in Japan.
My advice is to just save enough money to last 2-3 months before going so you can look around. Most good jobs don't recruit outside Japan. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Korea vs Japan |
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Thanks again, pastis. I already have one contract finished in Korea, & have just started a second contract. A friend of a friend in Oz mentioned a smaller Japanese company (not one of the big 4) that was interested in my 2006 application, until I mentioned no prior experience.
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| There are many schools outside Tokyo |
little mixed girl is on a different wavelength. I was referring to where the teachers actually worked. As in outside of Tokyo. They obviously do not live in the schools, but in rented accomodation nearby. Clear?
And Kyushu is a long way from Tokyo. Is it really so inconceivable that my Canadian friend attended an alternate Jet Program in Fukuoka or Kagoshima? I could ask him, if you like. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: Nova |
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This is worrying:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Aussies-lose-teaching-jobs-in-Japan/2007/10/12/1191696140832.html
"Consular assistance is being offered to 1,300 Australians whose English-teaching company in Japan is going bust, Foreign Affairs minister Alexander Downer says.
Mr Downer said some of the teachers would return to Australia, while others would simply get another job.
Last month, the Osaka-based Nova Corporation reassured their 7,000 staff, 5,000 of whom are foreigners, that the company was not going out of business.
However, Mr Downer said on Friday that although the company had not "completely fallen over yet", it would "fall over", leaving 1,300 Australians financially stranded in a "very expensive" country.
"We'll provide them with consular assistance if they need it," he told ABC radio. "If they get into real personal difficulties, then we'll obviously help them out.
"Otherwise, if they cannot find another job in Japan, then they'll return to Australia."
Mr Downer said there were no broader implications to the company's collapse, it was simply going out of business through poor management.
"It is not as though people in Japan no longer want to learn English, or there has been a complete shift in the whole market, that's not right," he said." |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Quotes from Japan TEFL'ers on the main forum:
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Don't let all the talk of high prices scare you off. I just returned from teaching in Tokyo for the past 7 years and was able to save a fair sum of money. Trains/Subways are costlier than Korea, but you will end up being paid for transportation to your teaching gigs. Most people end up getting a train pass which is covered by the employer.
Food I found to be about the same as Korea (in price of course) and yes, there are plenty of non-spicy paste enhanced options. Apartments can be affordable enough if you place yourself 20 minutes out of the major cities and avoid the trendiest places.
Unlike the US, you don't really have to worry about a cheap apartment landing you in an unsafe environment (something I have had to be aware of again back home).
When you hear the teachers aren't in control of the classrooms, it is really more in the sense that they allow students to sleep and make excuses for them as to why they aren't motivated to participate in your lessons. I have never witnessed any sorts of discipline troubles at all. Just the conformity of Japanese society would stigmatise the student so badly in the eyes of his or her classmates, that they wouldn't dream of acting up. To a certain extent you can also control the type of school you land in by researching the city and not applying at a few of the schools in lower socio-economic areas.
I have visited Korea and liked it, but Japan offers a pretty good deal all around. Good pay, generally mellow people, and no hassles from employers. Good luck! |
Another....
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I taught in Apkujung Seoul and Busan. Loved Busan.
In any case, I know what you are talking about. I fell for Japan on a visa run from, you guessed it, KOREA. I wanted so badly to just dump the Korean gig and live here, that is how impressed I was, this is 1998, Fukuoka...
Busy like Korea but breezy emotionally. You will miss the full on-ness of Korea, and find a kind of aluminum lightness of being here. At least I hope you do.
Give it a shot is all I can tell you. May be lots of competition just now because of the NOVA thing. Ah well, with your qualifications, you might be alright. On that score I just don't know. I work for American Language School and have been treated right.
Good luck to you fellow wanderer and Dok Poki veteran. |
Another....
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| I haven't worked in Korea although I have been there on holiday. I do tend to think Japan is the nicer of the two as a place to live and work. However, if you like Korea and have a good job that you like, just deal with the food issue. I think it would be foolish to change ONLY because of the food. Deal with it. |
Another....
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Japan being safe and clean are my favorite things about Japan....customer service is also amazing...most of the people are super friendly and will go out of their way to help you...uhmmmm
There are churches but probably not as much as Korea...it is by no means the "epicenter in the world for evangelical Christianity". It is very easy to be a Christian here, no one will ever condemn you BUT it is pretty hard to have a discussion about religion like I was able to do ALL the time in the states....so Korea is probably better in that area....
But Japan is super nice, I am sure you would like it... |
Another....
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I would add that in Korea I could be sitting in a bar or a coffee shop wherever- maybe just strolling down the street, not meaning a gnat or a fly a bit of harm, when I would SUDDENLY run up against one form of negativity or another. A crazed bus driver putting a choke hold on a passenger, a taxi driver on the hood of his car screaching...an irate girlfriend bellowing, WAE GUDDAE???????!!!!!!!!! to her hapless boyfriend. Bible thumpers, red in the face holy rolling at full volume down the aisle of my train...
I just respect the fact that I can just coast on down the lane here without being put upon or challenged in some weird, macho way. Lo be it to me to tell you it is paradise here, Noelle, but having done fun/ crazy/ rewarding time in Europe, the Middle East and in a few countries in Asia, well, I appreciate the vibe. The non-vibe as it were. |
Another....
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Japan gives foreigners a better deal when it comes to being able to go about your business quietly and peacefully in Japan. You are conveniently forgetting that some countries' embassies warn their nationals against working in Korea for very good reasons - the continuing abuses of foreigners working there especially in the hagwon system.
Japan's employment problems for foreigners pale besides the ones waiting for many of them in Korea. I had a good job in Korea but I knew so many other foreigners who were routinely cheated and abused in other ways. It's a fact.
It's why there's a huge turnover of foreign teachers of English in Korea and why they offer perks such as free housing and airfares although being cheated out of those is certainly not unknown. It's the reason why demand outnumbers supply in Korea.
Japanese laws governing foreigners teaching English are positively enlightened compared to Korea and are decent in their own right. You are not owned by your employer, you do not get blacklisted at your employers' whim because you didn't renew or because you gave enough notice for resignation.
Or because you were stressed and left under a cloud because you weren't getting paid, or where in an apartment with no running water or dirty yellow water, or placed to live in a red light district and your employers refused to change the situation. These are only a few samples of what really goes on in Korea for many teachers.
You'd have to do something criminal to get blacklisted by Immigration in Japan. In Korea it's easy - have a polite falling out with your employer and you could very well find yourself in that position.
Overall Japan is a non confrontational culture. I found it easy to feel good about my life there apart from some interference by bigots in rural areas. However, in daily life the Japanese back away from confrontation and as I noted before will go out of their way to be civil generally.
There is still the you are an outsider mentality and it can lead to some rudeness by people who are otherwise polite but it is nothing compared to the daily rudeness of having doors flung in your face, no thank yous for helping people especially older people, hacking up phlegm and showering it in pc cafes on the floor, spitting on the street, surrounding foreigners who just want to go about their lives quietly etc.
This does not happen in Japan as a rule and the only people spitting and being a bit strange are in a minority, a real minority. Throwing trash and spitting was something I encountered on a daily basis in Korea.
On the trains there is incredible rudeness in Korea such as being physically and nastily shoved aside because the people didn't want to wait. The manners of middle aged and older to old Koreans are often uncouth especially compared to those in Japan. A few old ladies queue jumping in Japan are nothing compared to the aggressive handling that goes on in Korea as fairly normal.
I found Korea to be in my face and what was worse, the constant whingeing about every other country received huge over emphasis. When in a football game a Swiss referee or somebody didn't favour the Koreans, it became a huge issue on the news, just as the constant 'I hate Japan' mantra was also disturbing.
The Korean kids are brought up on a diet of aggressive nationalism in their text books and are encouraged to feel insulted in foreigners don't like kimchi etc. The nationalism in Japanese textbooks is relatively passive compared to the garbage that passes for instruction in some Korean school textbooks. |
I think there should be more threads on Japan vs Korea.
There simply isn't enough information on Dave's contrasting the two countries. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Korea or Japan |
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Teco:
I've never encountered any really aggressive behaviour on the subway in either Seoul or Busan. I have used the Seoul subway extensively over the past 15 months. For truly aggressive commuter behaviour, try Shanghai in China. I had to scream at people to get out of my way, to let me off at my station, & use my suitcase as a battering ram. I kid you not.
And I don't like kimchi. But I have never been discriminated against because of this. Otherwise a pretty accurate post. |
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IncognitoHFX
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Yeongtong, Suwon
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
JET turns down several thousand applicants every year while EPIK can't meet modest quotas...that tells you a lot right there. |
JET is freaking hard to get into. When I applied last year (to start in June I think), I applied with a bunch of friends from university. I got outright rejected, and I wasn't surprised, seeing as how my GPA wasn't stellar (3.4) and I had no extra-curriculars in University (I wrote in the student newspaper, attended a political society and worked on political party campaigns in the university, but no athletics which is what they were looking for).
However some friends of mine applied--early, with excellent applications, loads of extra curriculars, one who had finished a Master's degree... and they were outright rejected in the same fashion as I was.
I don't know what JETs hiring priorities are, but even if you are top, top notch, it seems to be pretty random whether or not you will get accepted. I had a couple friends get accepted several years ago, but it seems to have changed since then. |
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