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happeningthang

Joined: 26 Apr 2003

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject:

dmbfan wrote:

Ya know, I'm just going to let it all hang.

Quite a few of you have your heads way up your arsses. OR........quite a few of you are just on the liberal, anti Bush/America bandwagon (thats what far lefties do...they are so consumed with hate, that ultimately they end up hating their own country). OR....and I hope this is not the case, but a quite a few of you may just be blind and dumb.

First, WMD's............why is it so hard to beleive that, given Saddams reputation in the Middle East, that he did send those weapons off to Syria before coalition forces arrive? Why is that so hard to even consider? Why? No, don't come back with you repetitious point of "Uh....(grunt)...wheres da evidence?" Just anwer the question.

Whether you want to to beleive it or not, Saddam DID have WMD's and he DID send them off to Syria, under cover of releif aid of a natural disaster BEFORE the coalition forces arrived. The far left media, supporters, lobbiests and politicians KNOW this....but, they will not acknowlege it because it makes Bush look like the one who is in the right.

OK, why doesn't Bush counter these attacks? Good question dmbfan! WEll, Bush is not in a popularity contest. He realizes what needs to be done, and he does not follow the different emotions, swells or thought, or even compulsiveness of the people. He does what he things is best for the United States...............he is not Kerry, Hillary or some other wanna be leader, who has no principles of his/her own.

Oreilly has even mentioned this. He has talked about how the Bush administration is NOT doing a good job with communicating these things to the people, and letting the media, the far left and the ignorant fish tacos keep on going with the B.S. Yeah, I agree with this. However, he is doing what he feels is best for the country. He is standing by what he set out to do..................and I respect him for that.

Look at this way........you have all the far left and sheep followers wanting to pull out of Iraq. Well, what happend the last time the U.S. pullled out of Iraq?

1. Saddam stayed in power, because the U.S. wanted to give the people the chance to rise against Saddam themselves.......did it work? NO!
2. Tens of thousands were slaugtherd by Saddams henchmen. Anyone who was thought to whisper so much as bad word about Saddam, was killed.
3. Despite 12 years of "sanctions" on Iraq (which only hurt the people, not Saddams government) Saddam became richer, more power hungry and more dangerous. NOT just to the West, but to the region as well.

Those are some good reasons why the United States needs to fullfill the committment............and win the peace there. Granted, it may not happen. But, those democrats that keep saying "We will get our troops out of there" are full of it! They will do that, and are lying to the American pubic.

If you REALLY think that Saddam was not a threat to the region (Isreal, and other countries in the Middle East..........oh yeah, lets not forget that he was GOING to attack Isreal with Chemical Weapons in 1990/91.....lets not forget that he did send an attack on Tel Aviv in 1991), he was laughing his but off while the U.N. imposed "sanctions" on Iraq (playing the UN for th fool), and did not have WMD's but sent them off to Syria..........then, lets say your judgement skills are not up to par.

Look at it this way, if a Democrat were in office while this war was going on, you would not see the far left media protraying it as "a disaster" or a "lost cause". It would shown as a success, and we would not hear much about it. If a democrat gets elected this term, that is how it is going to be shown........to make them look like they are doing it right, and are a bunch of geniuses.

In regards to the U.S. being a bully...........eat it. The U.S. is no more a bully then some other countries in the world. Every time there is a natural disater, who is the the first to get there with aid? How many United States citizens have died so that others would have a chance? Is the United States not letting its own people travel? Is the United States threatening to bomb everyone that does not agree? NO!!!!! Get your heads out of your buts, people. I know it is hard, but you can do it.

And...............oh.....out of coffee......I'll be back.

But by all means, you far left guys go ahead and respond. ....it's OK.

dmbfan

You seem to be arguing with your imagined opponents here instead of actually engaging in dialogue with you know, actual people.

It's confusing when people offer a range of responses to a wide group of issues and opposing opinions. It's comforting to try and lump the opposition into an all encompassing group, but the more you do so your argument becomes less cohesive and convincing, and more and more like paranoid ramblings.

I mean really... you take shots at who?? The liberals, democrats, and the far left media, supporters, lobbiests and politicians, those who are anti-bush and anti-american. You make it sound as if there is no diversity of opinion amongst this wide group of institutions and the people they're comprised of.

I'm not far left, but definitely on that side of the spectrum, and I can find a few things to agree with in your post. It's not at all difficult to imagine Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and he shipped them off before UN investigations. Still, unlike your assertion that there were WMDs- goddammit, I haven't seen much evidence for this apart from this one biography, which is more an assertion than proof.

Saddam was a tyrant who needed to be taken out, and it begs the question why it wasn't done in Desert Storm I. America should definitely NOT pull out of Iraq now. The US has stirred the pot, created a power vacum and provided a background for civil war. To pull out now and wash their hands of Iraq would make the US directly responsible for the resulting chaos, and pretty much ensure that Iraq's next leadership will be as murderous and tyrannical as whatever went before.

Sleepy in Seoul

Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:

dmbfan wrote:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

What bullies are there trying to force the U.S. to do unspeakable things? How many countries are there that are bigger and more powerful than the U.S.? How many times has the U.S. government forced, or tried to force, other countries to do things that they didn't want to do through threats of one kind or another?

You tell us. You seem to be on the bandwagon, so you must have all the logical answers to this.

I just find it all highly ironic and very amusing that an American is accusing other countries of bullying.

cbclark4

Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:37 am Post subject:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

So Joo, are you denying that the U.S. is a bully?

They bullied the hell of Japan and Germany.
(Your welcome)

I think leaving Iraq would be the best thing.

It should be done swiftly and quietly, overnight if possible.

What would happen civil war?
Perhaps an invasion from Iran, or Turkey or Syria?
Maybe Al Qaeda will consolidate there?

US Forces are good at going in and attacking, it's the occupation and
police actions that suck.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:29 am Post subject:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

dmbfan wrote:

Is he not the one that believes that if America cowers in the corner, that the bullies will leave us alone?

bully
noun [C]
someone who hurts or frightens someone who is smaller or less powerful than them, often forcing them to do something they do not want to do:

What bullies? One of the worst bullies in the world is the U.S. itself.

Did the US frighten you into saying that?

Please. The fact that there are so many up in arms is evidence that what you're saying isn't very true.

Al Qaeda and Iran are trying with terror to force the US to give into their demands.

the US is bigger than any other nation so anytime the US has a conflict or problem with another nation or group you will claim bullying.

Pluto

Joined: 19 Dec 2006

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:56 am Post subject:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

dmbfan wrote:

Is he not the one that believes that if America cowers in the corner, that the bullies will leave us alone?

Did the US frighten you into saying that?

Please. The fact that there are so many up in arms is evidence that what you're saying isn't very true.

The US also bullied the DPRK and the People's Republic of China.
You've got a job in Korea?
You're welcome. Cool

Sleepy in Seoul

Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:53 am Post subject:

Pluto wrote:

The US also bullied the DPRK and the People's Republic of China.
You've got a job in Korea?
You're welcome. Cool

I believe that what you may be referring to is also sometimes called a 'war', which was fought with the unanimous support of the UN. New Zealand also fought in that 'war'. Thank you New Zealand Cool

Thank you's are also due to Australia, Canada, the U.K., Turkey, South Africa, Thailand, Belgium, Colombia, Ethiopia, Greece, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the Philippines. And the U.S..

dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject:

Quote:

believe that what you may be referring to is also sometimes called a 'war', which was fought with the unanimous support of the UN. New Zealand also fought in that 'war'. Thank you New Zealand Thank you's are also due to Australia, Canada, the U.K., Turkey, South Africa, Thailand, Belgium, Colombia, Ethiopia, Greece, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the Philippines. And the U.S

Oh, you mean way back when the U.N. was useful, not corrupt, and took action rather then laying down "sanctions" for 12 years?

LOL!

dmbfan

Dome Vans
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject:

dmbfan wrote:

Quote:

Oh, you mean way back when the U.N. was useful, not corrupt, and took action rather then laying down "sanctions" for 12 years?

LOL!

dmbfan

Excellent. Corrupt!! Look who's talking. Dubya "here's some money, go and invade Iraq and give us the construction contracts" said Cheney. "Yep" said bush nodding.

When talking of action it's best to really understand what is legitimate action before throwing that argument around. Check out the quagmire in Iraq. Yeh right I forgot you aren't allowed to see what's really going on and get a nicely sanitized version of the situation.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

dmbfan wrote:

Is he not the one that believes that if America cowers in the corner, that the bullies will leave us alone?

Did the US frighten you into saying that?

Please. The fact that there are so many up in arms is evidence that what you're saying isn't very true.

[1] What bullies are there trying to force the U.S. to do unspeakable things? [2] How many countries are there that are bigger and more powerful than the U.S.? [3] How many times has the U.S. government forced, or tried to force, other countries to do things that they didn't want to do through threats of one kind or another?

[Added numbers to quote above]

To (1), None. Your point?

To (2), None. Its not a crime to be powerful, even as much as you would wish it were so.

To (3),

(a) Its called international relations. Geopolitics is not sharing time at kindergarten.

(b) You'll need to actually give examples, as I'm going to argue that you've got nothing.

igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject:

Here's a thought: let the Middle East work its own problems out End the criminal occupation now. BRING EM' HOME.

dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Here's a thought: let the Middle East work its own problems out

End the criminal occupation now.

BRING EM' HOME.

Well, I can't argue the fact I would like to see our boys/gals home as well.

But, think of the consequnces it would have in the future?

dmbfan

Pluto

Joined: 19 Dec 2006

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Pluto wrote:

The US also bullied the DPRK and the People's Republic of China.
You've got a job in Korea?
You're welcome. Cool

I believe that what you may be referring to is also sometimes called a 'war', which was fought with the unanimous support of the UN. New Zealand also fought in that 'war'. Thank you New Zealand Cool

Thank you's are also due to Australia, Canada, the U.K., Turkey, South Africa, Thailand, Belgium, Colombia, Ethiopia, Greece, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the Philippines. And the U.S..

Indeed! Thank you New Zealand!

Quote:

New Zealand - Two rotations of 61 military engineers, known as Task Force Rake, operated in Iraq from September 26, 2003 to September 25, 2004.[85][86] They were deployed to undertake humanitarian and reconstruction tasks consistent with UN Security Council Resolution 1483; they were not part of the invading force. While in Iraq the unit was under British command (South East Iraq) and was based in Basra.

Mix1

Joined: 08 May 2007

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:32 am Post subject:

dmbfan wrote:

Quote:

Here's a thought: let the Middle East work its own problems out

End the criminal occupation now.

BRING EM' HOME.

Well, I can't argue the fact I would like to see our boys/gals home as well.

But, think of the consequnces it would have in the future?

dmbfan

Hmm... if the story in the OP is true (wow, FOX reported it!)...it hardly justifies the case for invading Iraq and staying there for an unknown amount of time in the first place. Anyway, What do you want to do now...invade Syria too?

Sleepy in Seoul

Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:08 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Thank you. Referring to your numbers, 1 and 2 were to point out the word 'bully' that dmbfan used in reference to America's enemies. I was trying to point out that it was an ill-advised choice of word. Perhaps subtelty is a waste of time here.

To number 3, where did I ever say that the U.S. is alone in behaving this way? And examples: how about when the U.S, tossed the toys well and truly out of the cot when New Zealand decided to become nuclear free. The U.S. kicked NZ out of the ANZUS alliance and is still refusing to share intelligence and honour its ANZUS treaty obligations. As NZ's Prime Minister of the time David Lange said:

Quote:

we have been told by some officials in the United States administration that our decision is not, as they put it, to be cost-free; that we are in fact to be made to pay for our action. Not by our enemies, but by our friends. We are in fact to be made an example of; we are to be ostracised, we are to be convicted of some form of heresy and put on probation. We are going to be kept there until we are compelled to resume our seat in the dress circle of the nuclear theatre. ... It is self-defeating logic, just as the weapons themselves are self-defeating: to compel an ally to accept nuclear weapons against the wishes of that ally is to take the moral position of totalitarianism, which allows for no self-determination, and which is exactly the evil that we are supposed to be fighting against.

http://www.publicaddress.net/default,1578.sm#post

Do you want more examples?

(Edit: link added.)

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

Fair enough. I generally skip over his posts, so I may have missed your replies to him.

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:

To number 3, where did I ever say that the U.S. is alone in behaving this way? And examples: how about when the U.S, tossed the toys well and truly out of the cot when New Zealand decided to become nuclear free. The U.S. kicked NZ out of the ANZUS alliance and is still refusing to share intelligence and honour its ANZUS treaty obligations. As NZ's Prime Minister of the time David Lange said:

Quote:

http://www.publicaddress.net/default,1578.sm#post

Do you want more examples?

(Edit: link added.)

I can't help but admire David Lange in spite of myself. Personally, if I were leader of NZ, I would do the same thing. NZ is small enough and isolated enough from threats that it can pull such stunts, and since NZ has done nothing wrong, the US and Australia would still come to its aid in the unlikely scenario that another country would attack it.

It would be interesting to see the provisions of the ANZUS treaty, and to read an analysis of an international attorney's opinion from each side on the issue. As it stands, its hard for me to be sure that the US is violating ANZUS provisions by its actions, although I would not doubt evidence showing that it is. After all, wasn't NZ supposed to accomodate those nuclear submarines by treaty?

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