| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
soju pizza
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: Question about article use |
 |
|
Two questions about definite articles:
1. Why is it that you can go to market or go to the market?
2. Why do you go downtown but not go the downtown?
Is it because the first is acting as an adverb and the other as a noun? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Question about article use |
|
|
| soju pizza wrote: |
Two questions about definite articles:
1. Why is it that you can go to market or go to the market?
2. Why do you go downtown but not go the downtown?
Is it because the first is acting as an adverb and the other as a noun? |
1. A product goes to market. Maybe a farmer goes to market to sell his turnips. Do you really say you "go to market?"
2. Yes, downtown usually functions as an adverb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't say "go to market." I "go to the market."
I also don't say "go to hospital." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
soju pizza
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
alrighty...how about
go to school
or
go to church? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| soju pizza wrote: |
alrighty...how about
go to school
or
go to church? |
Yep. I do those things.
I think this is just a regional difference. Where are you from? I'm American. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
soju pizza
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Me too.
I want to know the grammar reason for why the article "the" is dropped in school or church. (go to school, go to church). Both school and church are nouns.
I think go to market sounds weird too. But many people say it. It sounds archaic and pretentious.
I got stumped by a student today when they asked why there is no "the" in front of "downtown" in "go downtown." It wasn't until later I realized it was probably an adverb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
A friend of mine, Laurel Smith Stvan (now at UT-Arlington), wrote her PhD dissertation on these forms, known as "bare singular noun phrases." Here's a copy of the abstract:
| Quote: |
The Semantics and Pragmatics of Bare Singular Noun Phrases
This dissertation examines the behavior of bare singular noun phrases, a set of English nominals showing no formal indication of either definiteness or mass/count status. Although they appear to be count nouns, I show that the bare use of these nouns represents maximal projections. Often disregarded as potential referring expressions and rarely discussed as an NP option, bare singulars are used to assist a hearer in finding relevant information about a referent.
Based on an examination of 864 naturally occurring tokens of bare singular NPs in locative PPs (e.g., on campus, at school, in church), I show that they are used to convey three distinct meanings involving the locatum and the denoted location. Specifically, their use can create a Familiarity Implicature, an Activity Implicature, or can be used generically. Familiarity Implicature is a form of deixis by which the location is identified by being anchored off one of the discourse participants. Activity Implicature is a use of the whole PP to predicate information about the located person, although the NP itself is non-referential. Bare location forms can also be used as generic expressions to give characterizing information about the location kind. The implicated senses are created through conventional R-based implicature; thus, the implicated meaning is not cancelable, reinforceable, or non-detachable. This non-detachability means that the implicated meaning of these words is connected to the bare singular form as a full noun phrase, but as a necessary, not sufficient, constraint; not all ostensive count NPs used in the bare singular form convey the implicated meanings. The Familiarity or Activity meaning is associated, by convention, with just those nouns that belong to certain semantic classes (institutions, media, temporal interruptions and metaphors), when certain relationships are taken to hold among the discourse participants. I present five morphosyntactic indicators by which other languages represent the same contrasts which the bare versus articulated form captures in English: omission of articles, contraction, contrasting locative prepositions, locational versus non-locational verbs, and case marking. |
Probably TMI for most people. It's tough for me to read because it isn't really my branch of linguistics. Basically, they serve pragmatic functions in discourse, implicating a kind of shared knowledge between interactors about nouns in particular semantic classes.
For example, if I'm talking with you about a place "on campus", it implies some anchoring of said campus to one or both of us as participants in the discourse (i.e., one of us works or studies or is known to hang out there), while "on the campus" carries no such implication (while the campus still remains grammatically definite). Choosing the definite article de-anchors the noun in discourse, and represents a distancing option for a speaker.
For teaching purposes, you could point out the relevant semantic classes to students, though those aren't perfect guides to when to use or not use a definite article. Like many items of discourse pragmatics, this can't be taught as simple grammar rules. Instead learners really need to acquire a feel for the use through exposure to alternatives and discovery processes.
A .pdf of the whole dissertation is available from her webpage at UT-Arlington. She also references there one article already out in a book and a forthcoming article in Lingua on this topic, for those who are interested. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| soju pizza wrote: |
alrighty...how about
go to school
or
go to church? |
If you're going "to school" or "to church" you are going there to do the expected activities (study/pray or teach/preach if you happen to be a teacher or a pastor). If you're going "to THE school" or "to THE church" you're going to do an unrelated activity, such as playing basketball or meeting a friend. I always make my students write a follow-up if they use "to the school". They must write something like "I'm going to the school to meet my friend." It seems to etch it more clearly in their minds. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
soju pizza
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm glad to hear that the grammatical reason is impossible for me to understand, at least after this bottle of red wine. Now I can go and tell my students that it is impossible for them to understand, but if they want to try, they can google Laurel Smith Stvan (now at UT-Arlington) and report back to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Certain nouns are just considered institutions, as well as concrete places. It also implies what one is doing at said institution.
"I went to college in Indiana" v. "I went to the college to meet with the Board of Trustees" or "I went to church every Sunday" v. "I went to the church to pick up the hymnals". "I go to market every Saturday" v. "I took some photographs at the market."
Usually, if one is attending the institution because of some essential function of its existence, you omit the "the". But if its tangential, you use "the". Maybe that's too philosophical, but it's the best way I can put it.
One exception is the bank. I guess it depends on how ubiquitous you consider the "institution". I'm sure there are many others.
One difference is that the Brits say "To hospital" to mean one is sick and "to the hospital" means one is visiting. The same way Americans say "to jail" and "to the jail".
I don't know if this helps or if its just a series of obvious examples. Good luck. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Question about article use |
|
|
| soju pizza wrote: |
Two questions about definite articles:
1. Why is it that you can go to market or go to the market?
2. Why do you go downtown but not go the downtown?
Is it because the first is acting as an adverb and the other as a noun? |
What we have here is the difference between the generic and definite nouns.
I went to the market.
The use of the makes market a definite noun. This implies that both the speaker and listener are aware of/ or the speaker wants the listener to understand which market is being spoken of.
I went to market
In this context the market is a generic noun. It is not really important which market was gone to, all markets are generally the same. The emphasis is that you went and did all the things assosiciated with going to market.
This accounts for things like school, work, church. The emphasis is not on which school, workplace or church you actually went to but the action that is generally performed there.
In an interesting twist we often use the definite article THE when in fact we are referring to a generic noun. Notably with inventions, animal species or instruments.
The telephone is a great invention. = All telephones are great.
The tiger is an interesting animal.= All tigers in general are interesting.
The cello is one f#cked up instrument. = Not just my cello, all cellos.
Confusingly, we also use THE when referring to places which are basically the same/used for the same function when it is not understood by the listener which exact place we are going to.
Im going to the store. If there are 10 stores near your house the listener most certainly does NOT infact know which one you are going to.
I'm going to the park. Ditto.
Telling the difference between the two situations is pretty confusing.
To me it seems like this.
We remove the definite article when it is not important which place you went to but which ACTION was performed there. What the place is usually USED FOR.
We sometimes add the definite article to a generic noun when the place or item is basically the same. I.e, a store is a store is a store. No feeling of what the noun is used for is intended.
It really seems like the rule is splitting hairs but thats how I teach it.
As for HOME. Meh.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
