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trubadour
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| arjuna wrote: |
Is any crime physically or logically impossible? That it is possible means it is allowed. Also means that you will need to take care the consequences.
In other words, don't get all sentimental about forgiveness, and don't look to any force outside yourself to take care of your own mess. It's all up to you. |
I'm not sure you can say that if its possible its allowed. What's the point of a moral code that doesn't require obiedience?
I get you on a certain level, but really, no one suggested that because it's not allowed, it's not possible.
Certainly forgiveness is not about sentimentality. It is the opposite. Pennance and forgiveness bring atonement and release from the past.
Yes, its up to us all to forgive, for our own sake's! |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
If we're talking about biblical forgiveness there's the famous saying when Jesus was being crucified that 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do' - here Jesus surely wasn't saying that he thinks they've moved past crucifying people and that they're swell chaps to hang out with now, since they were still in the midst of crucifying a whole bunch of people and were definitely going to do it again.
That's why I don't use the word, because people don't always agree on what it means and it's bound to create misunderstanding. |
Good point. What word do you use then? |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| trubadour wrote: |
| So, we are not off the hook - even Jesus could only petition God on our behalf, as if it's not ultimately up to him; so who's to say if God will forgive all? Indeed, the King in Matt.18 above, did not show mercy to his servant when he found that this servant hadn't shown forgiveness to another... |
Never.
I don't know if Jesus did petition God, but forgiving was within his power, as it is in any one of us. No need to ask for permission to forgive. However, the the forgiving frees the forgiver from being limited in his future forward movement (aka evolution). The forgiven are not off the hook. Because the deed was done, and the energy configuration of the universe was changed as a result of the deed. The doer cannot be off the hook, by the laws of physics. For his/her own forward movement, the doer has to address the imbalance he/she created, so as to be able to move (evolve). |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| trubadour wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
Is any crime physically or logically impossible? That it is possible means it is allowed. Also means that you will need to take care the consequences.
In other words, don't get all sentimental about forgiveness, and don't look to any force outside yourself to take care of your own mess. It's all up to you. |
I'm not sure you can say that if its possible its allowed. What's the point of a moral code that doesn't require obiedience?
I get you on a certain level, but really, no one suggested that because it's not allowed, it's not possible. |
No obedience is ever asked. That we think of the moral code and enforcement shows how primitive and off the mark (about the functioning of the universe) we are.
I am trying to point out that, at the level I was speaking, forgiveness is a non-issue. It is not considered, not entertained, because all is allowed, absolutely speaking. |
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trubadour
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| arjuna wrote: |
| trubadour wrote: |
| So, we are not off the hook - even Jesus could only petition God on our behalf, as if it's not ultimately up to him; so who's to say if God will forgive all? Indeed, the King in Matt.18 above, did not show mercy to his servant when he found that this servant hadn't shown forgiveness to another... |
Never.
I don't know if Jesus did petition God, but forgiving was within his power, as it is in any one of us. No need to ask for permission to forgive. However, the the forgiving frees the forgiver from being limited in his future forward movement (aka evolution). The forgiven are not off the hook. Because the deed was done, and the energy configuration of the universe was changed as a result of the deed. The doer cannot be off the hook, by the laws of physics. For his/her own forward movement, the doer has to address the imbalance he/she created, so as to be able to move (evolve). |
From the Bible, Luke 23 (King James Version):
23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
He says 'father, [please] forgive them..." as if, he himself had alreay done so, but was frighted his father might not!
But forgiveness is pretty important in Christianity. Aside from the one mentioned earlier, where the King condemns his forgiven servant for not forgiving another, are there any other examples of how forgiven sinners suffered?? Y'know just to encourage others out there to forgive! |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bible is not a reliable record of what Jesus said or did. |
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trubadour
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| arjuna wrote: |
| trubadour wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
Is any crime physically or logically impossible? That it is possible means it is allowed. Also means that you will need to take care the consequences.
In other words, don't get all sentimental about forgiveness, and don't look to any force outside yourself to take care of your own mess. It's all up to you. |
I'm not sure you can say that if its possible its allowed. What's the point of a moral code that doesn't require obiedience?
I get you on a certain level, but really, no one suggested that because it's not allowed, it's not possible. |
No obedience is ever asked. That we think of the moral code and enforcement shows how primitive and off the mark (about the functioning of the universe) we are.
I am trying to point out that, at the level I was speaking, forgiveness is a non-issue. It is not considered, not entertained, because all is allowed, absolutely speaking. |
Right. What level is that? Not everthing is allowed. There are fundamental laws and if you contraviene them stuff happens. Bad stuff. So even though you can cross them you can't cross them.
Moral code is not primative. It's got a bit of an archic rep, but actually the moral code of the New testiment is still a revelation to any who entertain it. And it is a freedom. In fact, it gives you freedom because when you follow it you follow a moral law that works in direct harmony with the being of reality and the universal laws thereof. |
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trubadour
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| arjuna wrote: |
| The Bible is not a reliable record of what Jesus said or did. |
And the Bhagavad Gita is? |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Another example of the stupidity of religion. Say you are sorry and that you have found god and all is forgiven...it's okay that you raped little boys or Michael Vick recently found god so all is forgiven.
A non believer or skeptic who has led a good life, gave to charity, helped others, good family person....but because they don't accept god, they are going to hell????????
Simply ridiculous.
P.S. How is sexually abusing little boys NOT GAY?? You are not gay until they are legal?? |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| trubadour wrote: |
Right. What level is that? Not everthing is allowed. There are fundamental laws and if you contraviene them stuff happens. Bad stuff. So even though you can cross them you can't cross them.
Moral code is not primative. It's got a bit of an archic rep, but actually the moral code of the New testiment is still a revelation to any who entertain it. And it is a freedom. In fact, it gives you freedom because when you follow it you follow a moral law that works in direct harmony with the being of reality and the universal laws thereof. |
Can as in possible, yes. Can't as in may not, probably a good idea most of the time, but situations are never totally clear at the level we are perceiving things--so don't go judging everyone so automatically.
Anyway, you and I are mostly in agreement. |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| trubadour wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
| The Bible is not a reliable record of what Jesus said or did. |
And the Bhagavad Gita is? |
No. |
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mrsquirrel
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| 4 months left wrote: |
Another example of the stupidity of religion. Say you are sorry and that you have found god and all is forgiven...it's okay that you raped little boys or Michael Vick recently found god so all is forgiven.
A non believer or skeptic who has led a good life, gave to charity, helped others, good family person....but because they don't accept god, they are going to hell????????
Simply ridiculous.
P.S. How is sexually abusing little boys NOT GAY?? You are not gay until they are legal?? |
http://dsadevil.blogspot.com/2006/10/homosexuality-versus-pedophilia.html
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Groth writes that the fixated offender, or pedophile, tends to select boys more often than girls, but for reasons having nothing to do with homosexuality:
In general, fixated child molesters are drawn to children sexually in that they identify with the child and appear in some ways to want to remain children themselves. It is for this reason that the trend for fixated offenders is to target boys as victims. . . . They see the boy as a projected representation of themselves. They feel themselves to be more child than adult � more boys than men � and therefore find themselves more comfortable (especially sexually) in the company of children. . . . |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mrsquirrel wrote: |
| 4 months left wrote: |
Another example of the stupidity of religion. Say you are sorry and that you have found god and all is forgiven...it's okay that you raped little boys or Michael Vick recently found god so all is forgiven.
A non believer or skeptic who has led a good life, gave to charity, helped others, good family person....but because they don't accept god, they are going to hell????????
Simply ridiculous.
P.S. How is sexually abusing little boys NOT GAY?? You are not gay until they are legal?? |
http://dsadevil.blogspot.com/2006/10/homosexuality-versus-pedophilia.html
| Quote: |
Groth writes that the fixated offender, or pedophile, tends to select boys more often than girls, but for reasons having nothing to do with homosexuality:
In general, fixated child molesters are drawn to children sexually in that they identify with the child and appear in some ways to want to remain children themselves. It is for this reason that the trend for fixated offenders is to target boys as victims. . . . They see the boy as a projected representation of themselves. They feel themselves to be more child than adult � more boys than men � and therefore find themselves more comfortable (especially sexually) in the company of children. . . . |
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If you are a man and you fondle, touch, abuse another man/boy....you are gay or bi. |
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mrsquirrel
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| If that is what you believe then I'm not going to try and change your mind. |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mrsquirrel wrote: |
| If that is what you believe then I'm not going to try and change your mind. |
It's not only what I believe, isn't it just logic?? |
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