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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: excessive reading and writing sentences = pointless |
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I heard about a study that said that writing sentences for second language acquisition was basically a waste of time...reading didn't seem to be high on the list either....
anybody else heard of this study? maybe woland knows of it.....
vocab building and extended interaction seems to be the way to go....take a look at these English speakers......how much time have they spend writing sentences??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J68fKEHGNg |
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johninmaine
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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....all 4 of those are important. but like you said, vocab / interaction is more important. i say vocab / interaction should come first, so you have interest and pride in yourself. Wow, I can speak!??
then, work on the writing / reading....
this is what i did with Spanish, starting from 0.
also, they should never watch Korean TV in their house. destroy the TV, just like that Twisted Sister video?? |
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soju pizza
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Writing is a skill separate from speaking and listening in many ways.
If your goal is to teach writing, then go for it.
If your goal is to teach speaking, listening and pronunciation, then it probably falls into what you describe. But that's just my opinion. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: excessive reading and writing sentences = pointless |
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| postfundie wrote: |
I heard about a study that said that writing sentences for second language acquisition was basically a waste of time...reading didn't seem to be high on the list either....
anybody else heard of this study? maybe woland knows of it.....
vocab building and extended interaction seems to be the way to go....take a look at these English speakers......how much time have they spend writing sentences??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J68fKEHGNg |
I dont' really see how reading can be a waste of time; it promotes automaticity, as well as learning to understand meaning through context. Here's a blurb from an article with some references that talk about reading's affect on learning grammar:
For learners of English as a second language, research suggests that extensive reading may promote the acquisition of grammatical structures better than explicitly studying or practicing such structures (Elley, 1991). Indeed, for both first and second language learners, extensive reading significantly promotes grammatical fluency and a command of the syntactic resources of the language (Krashen, 1993)
Edit: too early to be typing...
Edit: source = http://books.heinemann.com/shared/onlineresources/08894/08894f5.html
Last edited by icnelly on Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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For learners of English as a second language, research suggests that extensive reading may promote the acquisition of grammatical structures better than explicitly studying or practicing such structures (Elley, 1991). Indeed, for both first and second language learners, extensive reading significantly promotes grammatical fluency and a command of the syntactic resources of the language (Krashen, 1993)
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yeah...but at what level??...did you look at the video I posted.? How much reading have those kids been doing over the years??? yet they can interact better than some students who have wonderful TOEIC scores....
also look at illiterate people in the US...for a lot of them you can't even tell that they can't read...they can hide it for years....so i guess their command of syntactic structures has been enhanced some other way?
and wasn't Krashen really into the communicative approach? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicative_language_teaching) correct me if I'm wrong |
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marlow
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
and wasn't Krashen really into the communicative approach? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicative_language_teaching) correct me if I'm wrong |
And more recently big-time into extensive reading. Check out his Power of Reading. Basically, input equals output. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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My personal experience with learning a language is pretty straightforward.
1. learn about 1.000 words vocab (most important/used words)
2. try to speak simple sentences
3. read simple books, listen to others speak.
So, although vocab and speaking have prioirity, when it comes to really mastering a language reading and listening are not to be forgotten.
Writing i tend to neglect, since i am not a professional translator or whatever. |
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johninmaine
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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...interestingly, writing in another language is best done on a computer for practice. because, on a computer you can type 60-80WPM. if you write on paper, you're lucky to get 20WPM. so, you get in so much more practice in a shorter time, and less of a headache.
i did this with Spanish, using emails to my current wife. we were apart for a year, and she said my grammar increased dramatically using emails.
also, i learned a little German by chatting and keeping 2 translating windows open at the same time. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| marlow wrote: |
| postfundie wrote: |
and wasn't Krashen really into the communicative approach? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicative_language_teaching) correct me if I'm wrong |
And more recently big-time into extensive reading. Check out his Power of Reading. Basically, input equals output. |
Postfundie, stand corrected??
Here's a webpage on extensive reading:
http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/er/er_faq.htm
What does the comparison between illiterate native speakers and EFL learners have to do with this?? So beacuse the illiterates can speak naturally that denies reading's reasoning?
The goals of reading conjoin with the goals of communication well; t least from what I've read, and believe:
The first approach to using graded readers is to use them to practise the skill of fast fluent reading. This approach is often called Extensive Reading or graded reading. Graded readers are mostly used for the practice of fluent reading with the linguistic aims of practising the skill of reading, building word recognition automaticity, and focusing the learners on the message rather than the language as well as a whole host of other factors (See Day and Bamford, 1998 pp. 7-8 or Waring, 2001). |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| johninmaine wrote: |
...interestingly, writing in another language is best done on a computer for practice. because, on a computer you can type 60-80WPM. if you write on paper, you're lucky to get 20WPM. so, you get in so much more practice in a shorter time, and less of a headache.
i did this with Spanish, using emails to my current wife. we were apart for a year, and she said my grammar increased dramatically using emails.
also, i learned a little German by chatting and keeping 2 translating windows open at the same time. |
I write in Korean much faster than I type in Korean. Maybe it works for Spanish (and a number of other languages) because there are very few new/different keys. Korean, every key is different. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm happy to be corrected..and it was good to check out Krashen's book on Amazon...thankyou
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What does the comparison between illiterate native speakers and EFL learners have to do with this?? So beacuse the illiterates can speak naturally that denies reading's reasoning?
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I'm happy to be corrected about Krashen....also checked out his book on amazon...looks like a good read....I think extensive reading is wonderful once you are conversational....
my point about illiterates is that they have acquired the structure and very good verbal and listening skills WITHOUT reading...doesn't that strike you as odd? or maybe like those kids in the video...
when I was studying and teaching in Madrid I had an American friend that had kick ass speaking and comprehension skills in Spanish...watching TV, going out..speaking in front of people was no problem....when it came to his email skills however..man he was terrible and admitted it......remind you of anybody? How about some base ball player from the cornfields of Illinois who loves to watch movies and hang out with his friends but doesn't really read worth a lick......If only he had a teacher to shove reading down his throat then he could interact with his friends right? or maybe if he would just write more sentences after school then he could watch some movies and understand them???
illiterates spend, and have spent, a ton of time in contexts where they understand the topic and can participate in it.....when they were children they talked about food and when in grade school they talked about sports or something they liked...they heard new vocabulary and picked it up in the context..they had confidence and they built on it.......no teacher standing over them making them read a paragraph helped them in their abilities to answer the phone, go shopping, or watch and understand 100% of Rambo, or Braveheart.. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| . Basically, input equals output |
in some ways....yessssss I couldn't agree more....but in reading you are only doing input....speaking and being able to handle situations that come up requires that you've had the right input....reading a book doesn't quite give you that.... |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Surely reading and writing aids pronunciation in the case of beginners. When I started learning Korean I couldn't imagine a situation in which I learnt to speak before I could read. My pronunciation would have suffered immensely. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| there's a difference between reading words and reading assignments... |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| I'm just dropping a note in so this will turn up when I look at threads I've posted in. It's an interesting topic. I'm overloaded with work now, but will try to contribute something this weekend. There's quite a bit to say on this. |
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