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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Dome Vans, you don't get it mate. On September 11th 2001, there was a united Islamic front against the West - the United States and Israel in particular, but we're all godless, zionist vermin.
Since the 2003 invasion, although I was at the time completely against the removal of Saddam's regime because I'm a long-time admirer of what he achieved in Iraq, Bush and Blair have created a war between the Sunnis and Shiites, thereby dividing and containing the previously united front that declared war on us in 2001.
Critics of Bush and the War seem to seriously believe that Bush, Blair and the hundreds of other highly educated people involved in the war's execution neglected the possibility of civil war. Absurd. It's totally calculated and so long as Muslim extremists continue to kill each other and not difficult military targets in Western cities (like people going to work on the subway, or a mother and young son at the mall buying a soccer jersey) it's all rather going to plan. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Dome Vans, you don't get it mate. On September 11th 2001, there was a united Islamic front against the West - the United States and Israel in particular, but we're all godless, zionist vermin.
Since the 2003 invasion, although I was at the time completely against the removal of Saddam's regime because I'm a long-time admirer of what he achieved in Iraq, Bush and Blair have created a war between the Sunnis and Shiites, thereby dividing and containing the previously united front that declared war on us in 2001.
Critics of Bush and the War seem to seriously believe that Bush, Blair and the hundreds of other highly educated people involved in the war's execution neglected the possibility of civil war. Absurd. It's totally calculated and so long as Muslim extremists continue to kill each other and not difficult military targets in Western cities (like people going to work on the subway, or a mother and young son at the mall buying a soccer jersey) it's all rather going to plan. |
Fair enough. But I seriously think that man thinks he is cleverer than he actually is. I don't think a mortal human being could have considered what has happened thus far with regards to the middle east. There may be an 'objective' but I doubt that we are smart enough or educated enough to realise what an effect a simple action would have.
If America was to have no opposition in the matter then they would have steamrollered the lot of them and have AMerica II in the middle east, problem being they seemed to have met with a fairly well run, well funded machine. This is why you would not be able to predict what the outcome may be. There is equally clever people on both sides. Both striving to achieve their objectives, it's not as simple as America's 'plan' going to plan. We aren't that smart that our will, will be done. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Spinoza: " I was...against the removal of Saddam's regime because I'm a long-time admirer of what he[Saddam]achieved in Iraq...."
Fook me to tears. Care to sing praises of Stalin & Mao too? |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
Fair enough. But I seriously think that man thinks he is cleverer than he actually is. I don't think a mortal human being could have considered what has happened thus far with regards to the middle east. There may be an 'objective' but I doubt that we are smart enough or educated enough to realise what an effect a simple action would have.
If America was to have no opposition in the matter then they would have steamrollered the lot of them and have AMerica II in the middle east, problem being they seemed to have met with a fairly well run, well funded machine. This is why you would not be able to predict what the outcome may be. There is equally clever people on both sides. Both striving to achieve their objectives, it's not as simple as America's 'plan' going to plan. We aren't that smart that our will, will be done |
Civil war in Iraq was extremely likely. Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Iraq repeated the cycle of coup, countercoup, and counter-countercoup. Iraq was an unnatural, British-created Frankenstein and even Saddam (who for the most part frightened them into national unity) was constantly crushing rebellions.
| Mosley wrote: |
| Fook me to tears. Care to sing praises of Stalin & Mao too? |
The region has a centuries-long tradition of tribalism and honor killings. Saddam held the various ethnic and religious groups in the country together, not merely in national unity, but actually a strong national unity capable of launching two wars against Iraq's neighbors (of course, Iran and Kuwait). Saddam brought economic security for all inhabitants of Iraq (admittedly with a bias towards the Sunni minority), relative freedom in the economic sector, cultural life (theater, arts and music) freedom for women, free education, stability and security in most parts of the country. |
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Dome Vans
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Dome Vans wrote: |
Fair enough. But I seriously think that man thinks he is cleverer than he actually is. I don't think a mortal human being could have considered what has happened thus far with regards to the middle east. There may be an 'objective' but I doubt that we are smart enough or educated enough to realise what an effect a simple action would have.
If America was to have no opposition in the matter then they would have steamrollered the lot of them and have AMerica II in the middle east, problem being they seemed to have met with a fairly well run, well funded machine. This is why you would not be able to predict what the outcome may be. There is equally clever people on both sides. Both striving to achieve their objectives, it's not as simple as America's 'plan' going to plan. We aren't that smart that our will, will be done |
Civil war in Iraq was extremely likely. Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Iraq repeated the cycle of coup, countercoup, and counter-countercoup. Iraq was an unnatural, British-created Frankenstein and even Saddam (who for the most part frightened them into national unity) was constantly crushing rebellions.
| Mosley wrote: |
| Fook me to tears. Care to sing praises of Stalin & Mao too? |
The region has a centuries-long tradition of tribalism and honor killings. Saddam held the various ethnic and religious groups in the country together, not merely in national unity, but actually a strong national unity capable of launching two wars against Iraq's neighbors (of course, Iran and Kuwait). Saddam brought economic security for all inhabitants of Iraq (admittedly with a bias towards the Sunni minority), relative freedom in the economic sector, cultural life (theater, arts and music) freedom for women, free education, stability and security in most parts of the country. |
Good points. So you're suggesting that America realised this and have instigated much the same as they did for the USSR. Not technically 'winning' the Cold War but merely waiting for the USSR's ideology to collapse as was inevitable and then try to claim the glory afterwards? As also in the WWII, joining the war at the opportune moment and then claiming that they won it for us?
I think that this is not as clear cut as any previous jaunt that the Americans have embarked on looking for glory. Germany, was a tangible enemy that could be defeated, Russia was an enemy that could be defeated by waiting for the right moment and the inevitable to happen. Islam is an ideology, this is not a battle that can be 'won'. Unsettling the region is not going to make a difference to threats to America. I know the thinking that America feels a body count back home is good for the greater cause but in this case they've bitten off more than they can chew. Islam is not that easily pushed over, it's not going to implode even with exerted pressure from America. Although I do give your arguments credence but I feel this war that is embarked on, is the one that is going to end their hegemonic status. But inevitably it is the one that they believe would have staved off the inevitable for them. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: Spinoza |
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Wow. Let me get this straight: Saddam was great because he launched two wars against neighbors(Iran/Kuwait...he lost both of those) and he kept "his" country together(a la Tito, Mao, Stalin). Hell's bells, what a great recommendation.
Then again, Hitler built the Autobaun, didn't he?
You're a disgraceful whack job.... |
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Gunther
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Location: opposingdigits.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Spinoza |
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| Mosley wrote: |
You're a disgraceful whack job.... |
Play the ball not the player!!! Don't let your emotions get the better of you.
NewsFlash : Top US Commander in Iraq announces Troop levels will gradually decrease over the next 5 years as soldiers die!!! |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. "
Napoleon Bonaparte
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
Wow. Let me get this straight: Saddam was great because he launched two wars against neighbors(Iran/Kuwait...he lost both of those) and he kept "his" country together(a la Tito, Mao, Stalin). Hell's bells, what a great recommendation.
Then again, Hitler built the Autobaun, didn't he?
You're a disgraceful whack job.... |
Claim X: "Saddam held the various ethnic and religious groups in the country together, not merely in national unity, but actually a strong national unity capable of launching two wars against Iraq's neighbors (of course, Iran and Kuwait)."
Distorted version of X (Claim Y): "Wow. Let me get this straight: Saddam was great because he launched two wars against neighbors(Iran/Kuwait...he lost both of those) and he kept "his" country together(a la Tito, Mao, Stalin)"
Attack on Y: "Hell's bells, what a great recommendation. Then again, Hitler built the Autobaun, didn't he? You're a disgraceful whack job..."
Total strawman argument. Dude, get lost. 
I mentioned the wars against Kuwait and Iran to emphasize the national unity (much of it through fear, I must say) - not emphasize that the wars were good or that war is good, or that wars due to national unity are good, or that Saddam was great because of wars. Just saying national unity was not entirely without its successes - a fact not overlooked by the Americans who tolerated Saddam throughout the 90s and supported him as a bulwark of stability against the hotbed of Islamic extremism, Iran, in the 80s. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Dome Vans wrote: |
[
Good points. So you're suggesting that America realised this and have instigated much the same as they did for the USSR. Not technically 'winning' the Cold War but merely waiting for the USSR's ideology to collapse as was inevitable and then try to claim the glory afterwards? As also in the WWII, joining the war at the opportune moment and then claiming that they won it for us?
. |
You might want to brush up on your history. America did not join the war as such but was more forced into it. Japan attacked it first and declared war on it. Germany being Japan's ally, followed suit.
It was only AFTER Germany had declared war against the U.S. that America declared war on Germany.
See the problem is when you go into EFL style ranting against the big bad U.S. but ignore FACTS, you simply lead people to dismiss you. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Um, let's see...we've shifted our reasons, rationale, and goalposts for the war several times over now...
But never mind...it's all going perfectly according to plan!
yeah, right. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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"Strawman", SPINOZA? Are you attending the keane/EFL "School of Debating" now? 
Seems like your last post was a whole lotta CYA backtracking, but it ain't cuttin' the mustard. Let's repeat your statement, for the whole wide world to see:
"I'M A LONG-TIME ADMIRER OF WHAT HE [SADDAM] ACHIEVED IN IRAQ"
Caps are mine.
So you berate me because I claimed you claimed Saddam had done great things for Iraq?!
In any event, it's typical leftist moral relativism. You come off as a (very) poor man's version of G.B. Shaw praising Uncle Joe.
I imagine your hanky got a workout when the trap door opened under the leader of those "Mothers of all Battles."
HAND |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| The war has been a failure but none of the Democratic front runners for President have said they will pull troops out of Iraq. So the US will be in Iraq for years to come. I hope Ralph Nader runs again. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| "Strawman", SPINOZA? Are you attending the keane/EFL "School of Debating" now? |
It was straightfowardly a strawman argument. I posted a link explaining what such a thing is and why it is inferior reasoning.
| Quote: |
| Seems like your last post was a whole lotta CYA backtracking |
What?
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| but it ain't cuttin' the mustard |
Everything I say cuts the mustard. Even when I'm wrong I'm right. "Grass is not green" would still sound plausible coming from me.
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| Let's repeat your statement, for the whole wide world to see |
K
| Quote: |
"I'M A LONG-TIME ADMIRER OF WHAT HE [SADDAM] ACHIEVED IN IRAQ"
Caps are mine.
So you berate me because I claimed you claimed Saddam had done great things for Iraq?! |
The word 'great' doesn't appear anywhere in my writing. I merely stated that I admired Saddam for holding the various ethnic and religious groups in the country together in national unity. My thinking Saddam was great does not necessarily follow.
| Quote: |
| In any event, it's typical leftist moral relativism |
Moral relativism yes, because my view is that Saddam-style rule is appropriate in difficult circumstances like Iraq but inappropriate in, say, Australia. Your pejorative tone, in the absence of reasoning to support your implied point, is again inferior thinking.
Also, since you've brought this up, how is thinking Saddam is "great" (your words, not mine) compatible with Left Wing politics?
| Quote: |
| You come off as a (very) poor man's version of G.B. Shaw praising Uncle Joe. |
I am transcendent �bermensch. Ain't that the freakin truth.
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I imagine your hanky got a workout when the trap door opened under the leader of those "Mothers of all Battles."
HAND |
All my points stand.
It's gonna take a more powerful warrior than you to compete with my brilliance. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| "Strawman", SPINOZA? Are you attending the keane/EFL "School of Debating" now? |
I think he's doing a bloody good job myself. He refutes your silly nonsense point by point, showing each time what a lazy debater you are. You rely on smearing and sneering, faulty extrapolations and inventing your opponents positions and imaginary political affinities. |
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