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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I think that anarchism is defunct and discredited and I respect someone like Murray Bookchin for disavowing it's individualist leanings. Just as a pack of wolves is wrong, so to is a the lone wolf.....Communalism seems the best alternative though we are a long way off from that ability to postpone today for tomorrow (which all intelligence truly is...).
For more reading on a man who should be noted more....
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bookchin/BookchinCW.html |
And may I recommend Aynn Rands Anthem.
Read it here for free:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Ayn_Rand/Anthem/
Pretty quick read. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: |
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"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne (1572-1631) |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: |
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cbc,
I couldn't disagree more.....
Rand is a person who discredits and aportions the human condition into "louts, layabouts, riff raff and the "NOBLE". I can't ever stand for her very "in"human and nonsensical view of human nature/life. Atlas Shrugged alone, for its sillyness, condemns her to the trash heap of literature and thought.
DD |
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Rand is a hilarious elitist, who wouldn't remotely qualify to join her fantasy-aristocracy.
She is the half-wit crutch of libertarians everywhere, to boot, and, even worse, is Allen Greenspan and Clarence Thomas's favorite author.
IMO, she was a piss-poor novelist and an even worse philosopher.
BONUS ENDING to Atlas Shrugged: The millionaire chosen few wake up the next morning in their secluded mountain escape, and realize they have no effing idea how to prepare breakfast, take out the trash, or shine their shoes. |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
And may I recommend Aynn Rands Anthem.
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. . . and yet another ESL teacher loses all credibility. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
And may I recommend Aynn Rands Anthem.
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. . . and yet another ESL teacher loses all credibility. |
I didn't recommend that anyone buy it and swallow it.
It was merely a recommendation to consider alternative views.
Did I state that I reject the notion of "communal-ism".
The spirit of the individual can survive in a communal ideal or do we all have to be square pegs in this communalistic world.
Anthem describes the plight of an individual coming to self realization in a dystopia of collectivist culture.
It is a theme that continues in many dystopia works, from "I Robot" to "The Island" and others.
One must search the opposite in order to obtain the proper dialectic view.
Don't assume I was proposing "Anthem" as some kind of bible, I was merely engaging the dialectic for the communal-ism, as I have earlier in this thread for arguments concerning the idea of tyranny, democracy, communism and capitalism.
It is amazing that we have such variety in literature. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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faster
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Twin Oaks is interesting. It was based largely on B.F. Skinner's Walden Two, which was a very interesting behaviorist approach to society-building. Too bad behaviorism is largely discredited, heh.
Edit: I have a good friend who grew up on The Farm. He didn't have a lot of good things to say about it, and by all metrics benefited greatly by moving to "the real world" in his teenage years. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
Capitalism and Socialism (Communism, Corporatism) have no real impact on Anarchy or Tyranny.
There have been Capitalistic Tyrants and Communist Tyrants.
The Economic system is a nonsequitur in this argument.
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Except that's not true whatsoever.
Anarchy is not absolute lawlessness anymore than Democracy is an absolute rule of the people (or of the Demos). |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
Capitalism and Socialism (Communism, Corporatism) have no real impact on Anarchy or Tyranny.
There have been Capitalistic Tyrants and Communist Tyrants.
The Economic system is a nonsequitur in this argument.
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Except that's not true whatsoever.
Anarchy is not absolute lawlessness anymore than Democracy is an absolute rule of the people (or of the Demos). |
What is not true?
Capitalist Tyrant - Juan Peron, Ferdinand Marcos.
Communist Tyrants - Fidel Castro, Tito, Stalin.
Your twisting a little funny.
First did I mention Democracy in what you quoted?
Are you trying to create a straw man? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
Capitalism and Socialism (Communism, Corporatism) have no real impact on Anarchy or Tyranny.
There have been Capitalistic Tyrants and Communist Tyrants.
The Economic system is a nonsequitur in this argument.
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Except that's not true whatsoever.
Anarchy is not absolute lawlessness anymore than Democracy is an absolute rule of the people (or of the Demos). |
What is not true?
Capitalist Tyrant - Juan Peron, Ferdinand Marcos.
Communist Tyrants - Fidel Castro, Tito, Stalin.
Your twisting a little funny.
First did I mention Democracy in what you quoted?
Are you trying to create a straw man? |
Capitalism and Communism do have an impact on the flavor of anarchy.
I read your assertion as saying: it is anarchy, hence, there can be no such things as capitalism or communism.
Except, at the very least they do reflect ideals people have who are anarchists by choice. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
Capitalism and Socialism (Communism, Corporatism) have no real impact on Anarchy or Tyranny.
There have been Capitalistic Tyrants and Communist Tyrants.
The Economic system is a nonsequitur in this argument.
|
Except that's not true whatsoever.
Anarchy is not absolute lawlessness anymore than Democracy is an absolute rule of the people (or of the Demos). |
What is not true?
Capitalist Tyrant - Juan Peron, Ferdinand Marcos.
Communist Tyrants - Fidel Castro, Tito, Stalin.
Your twisting a little funny.
First did I mention Democracy in what you quoted?
Are you trying to create a straw man? |
Capitalism and Communism do have an impact on the flavor of anarchy.
I read your assertion as saying: it is anarchy, hence, there can be no such things as capitalism or communism.
Except, at the very least they do reflect ideals people have who are anarchists by choice. |
Don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say:
"Capitalism and Communism do have an impact on the flavor of anarchy."
Anarchy cannot exist in a vacuum.
Anarchy is not an economic system and neither is Tyranny.
Sure the flavor is different as in my Tyrant examples above.
But they have no effect on the viabilty or possibility or anarchy to exist.
That an anarchy could exist within either economic system is as reasonable an assertion as the possibility of anarchy itself being viable.
The only case of anarchy I can attest too in the real world is the immediate post invasion Iraq. Do you have any real world examples of Socialist Anarchy or Capitalist Anarchy? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
Capitalism and Socialism (Communism, Corporatism) have no real impact on Anarchy or Tyranny.
There have been Capitalistic Tyrants and Communist Tyrants.
The Economic system is a nonsequitur in this argument.
|
Except that's not true whatsoever.
Anarchy is not absolute lawlessness anymore than Democracy is an absolute rule of the people (or of the Demos). |
What is not true?
Capitalist Tyrant - Juan Peron, Ferdinand Marcos.
Communist Tyrants - Fidel Castro, Tito, Stalin.
Your twisting a little funny.
First did I mention Democracy in what you quoted?
Are you trying to create a straw man? |
Capitalism and Communism do have an impact on the flavor of anarchy.
I read your assertion as saying: it is anarchy, hence, there can be no such things as capitalism or communism.
Except, at the very least they do reflect ideals people have who are anarchists by choice. |
Don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say:
"Capitalism and Communism do have an impact on the flavor of anarchy."
Anarchy cannot exist in a vacuum.
Anarchy is not an economic system and neither is Tyranny.
Sure the flavor is different as in my Tyrant examples above.
But they have no effect on the viabilty or possibility or anarchy to exist.
That an anarchy could exist within either economic system is as reasonable an assertion as the possibility of anarchy itself being viable.
The only case of anarchy I can attest too in the real world is the immediate post invasion Iraq. Do you have any real world examples of Socialist Anarchy or Capitalist Anarchy? |
Do you have any real world examples of why introducing economics into it is a non-sequitor?
Really, this is boring.
I assert there is anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-socialism. Why? Because I can conceive of such things. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay your right. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Being part of an anarchist group defeats the purpose of being an anarchist, doesn't it? |
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