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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Saxiif wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
I'm a Korean American and here's my 2 cents.
Since I look Korean and all my relatives are Korean, I have an insight into Korean society and culture that no Westerner will experince. I have a different perspective. |
Right gyopos can have a valuable perspective on a lot of things, but then you get the gyopos who've been in Korea a few months in their entire lives and assume that they know far more about what it is like to live in Korea than people who've been here for years. Then there are the gyopos who can't hack it in Korea (since Koreans tend to expect them to conform a lot more than whities) and get all bitter and annoying. There are a lot of cool gyopos in the middle of the whiner/apologist spectrum but the ones on either end get damn annoying. |
Knowing about KOREA and knowing about KOREANS are 2 totally different things in my opinion. A lot of gyopos are 1st or 2nd generation so they grew up in homes that emphasized Korean values and social structure. For me, outside my house was America. Inside my house was Seoul, Korea. When you walked inside my parent's house and took your shoes off at the door, you were in Korea.
That is why some gyopos have a better understanding of the social/cultural aspects of Koreans even having been in the country a very short time. However, just because they are familiar with that, it doesn't mean they know jack crap about Korea.
To hit the other end of the spectrum, I've run into non-gyopo foreigners who have been living in Korea for many years and they, too, talk with this condescending tone like they know it all.
To the OP, it isn't just gyopo's that pretend to know it all. There are foreigners in Korea that pretend to know it all too. The only truth is that no one knows it all. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
This is a collectivist society where comformity is very important. Look all around you. Everyone dresses the same. "The Nail that Sticks out gets Hamemred Down." No one does anything to stand out from the group. No one dares challenge authority. |
Yet you had the democracy movement in the eighties, the Gwangju uprising and social values such as morality are undergoing rapid change. How do you explain this in light of your statement? |
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Sucker
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Knowing about KOREA and knowing about KOREANS are 2 totally different things in my opinion. A lot of gyopos are 1st or 2nd generation so they grew up in homes that emphasized Korean values and social structure. For me, outside my house was America. Inside my house was Seoul, Korea. When you walked inside my parent's house and took your shoes off at the door, you were in Korea.
That is why some gyopos have a better understanding of the social/cultural aspects of Koreans even having been in the country a very short time. However, just because they are familiar with that, it doesn't mean they know jack crap about Korea.
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I don�t completely agree with this thesis.
1. Let�s say that a Korean couple move from Seoul to America in 1978 and have a kid in 1979. If, as you say, the kid�s home life is a reflection of Seoul, then it is going to be a reflection of Seoul circa 1978, not the Seoul of today. So while this person may have a good knowledge of Korean values/society, it is limited to the era that their parents left Korea.
2. Korean culture is not monolithic. A Korean family from Seoul has very different attitudes/customs/world views than does a family from Jeollanam-do. Even within Seoul there are huge differences based on wealth, education, background, religion, etc. Just because someone has a great deal of exposure to one Korean family does not mean that they understand the entirety of Korean society. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Knowing about KOREA and knowing about KOREANS are 2 totally different things in my opinion. A lot of gyopos are 1st or 2nd generation so they grew up in homes that emphasized Korean values and social structure. For me, outside my house was America. Inside my house was Seoul, Korea. |
Right, the only problem is when some people conflate "how my family does things" with "how Koreans do things." This is especially the case as the sort of Koreans who tend to immigrate to the states are not really representative of Korea as a whole. For example I spend a lot of time with my Korean in-laws and while I obviously don't know THAT much about their life I think I know more about how non-Christian working class Koreans live than a lot of gyopos with middle class Christian backgrounds.
Also what Sucker says is completely right. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Not a whine, but a fact. Some Koreans resent Korean Americans for coming back when the going is good, but it's really masked envy of the English ability and supposed better education and opportunities Korean Americans got in the U.S.
The problem is, Koreans expect Korean Americans to act Korean yet the latter are excluded in business deals, promotions and other things EVEN if they do conform. This is mainly due to school and hometown connections. Don't hold your breath when a Korean tells you "Things are changing." Things do change but many things stay the same: corruption, brown nosing to get ahead, cronyism and the like. I stopped trying to conform a long time ago after realizing this. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: |
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Wow - from such a crappy start this thread really got some good points being brought out. It's so true that every perspective has value and no perspective knows it all. Without doubt the most annoying perspective for me is by Korean-Americans who've visited Korea a few times and think they know it all. But then think - how annoying must it be for Koreans to have to listen to a westerner who's been here a few months and thinks he knows it all.
The only thing I'm sure of is that the longer I'm here the more certain I am that I'll never know the half of Korean culture. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
Not a whine, but a fact. Some Koreans resent Korean Americans for coming back when the going is good, but it's really masked envy of the English ability and supposed better education and opportunities Korean Americans got in the U.S.
The problem is, Koreans expect Korean Americans to act Korean yet the latter are excluded in business deals, promotions and other things EVEN if they do conform. This is mainly due to school and hometown connections. Don't hold your breath when a Korean tells you "Things are changing." Things do change but many things stay the same: corruption, brown nosing to get ahead, cronyism and the like. I stopped trying to conform a long time ago after realizing this. |
True - even within Korean regionalism is obviously huge, and when the region that separates you from Koreans is the Pacific Ocean, there are obstacles along with the opportunities. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
The only thing I'm sure of is that the longer I'm here the more certain I am that I'll never know the half of Korean culture. |
Right, but often the insider perspective is over-rated. I've studied a lot of history and, dear god, do people from the past often get basic things about their own societies very very wrong. Often being too intimately involved in something makes it hard to look at it objectively instead of according to your own necessarily unrepresentative experiences, but of course outsiders who base things on a few anecdotes or by showing local facts into some grand BS theory are often worse. |
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lostandforgotten
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Without doubt the most annoying perspective for me is by Korean-Americans who've visited Korea a few times and think they know it all. But then think - how annoying must it be for Koreans to have to listen to a westerner who's been here a few months and thinks he knows it all. |
I can't agree with you more. I used get annoyed at Italian-Americans in New York who claim to know all about Italy without even having lived in Italy and White-Americans who think they know all about Korean-Americans when the majority of them grew up in America probably thinking all asians are Chinese!(I'm talking from my experience and many others) So the point is, people should just stick to what they know best and so forth.
I was once at a bar where I heard an Irish-Canadian talking to a pure Irish about his Irish ancestry and so on. Of course, the Irish guy must have been thinking what I was thinking which is, "Get over it."
I have to say the same thing about Anglo-New Zealanders and Anglo-Australians who occasionally reminisce about the mighty British Empire they once were and so on.
Last edited by lostandforgotten on Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:00 am; edited 6 times in total |
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samd
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:03 am Post subject: |
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I think a lot of you are missing the point.
Pkang made a good point when he said that non-gyopo foreigners will never know what it is like to be Korean, or look Korean, without putting a mask on. This affects the way non-gyopo Koreans are treated and how they interact with Koreans, giving them a unique perspective.
So it doesn't really matter how long a gyopo has been here, even a couple of months is completely different from a couple of years for a non-gyopo.
I don't see why everything has to be a competition about "who knows more" anyway. Half of the posts in this thread are exactly that. However, most of the gyopos I know are cool about this, and are happy to meet a foreigner who is knowledgable about Korea.
What I get sick of are the people who have lived here long-term or semi-long-term and ask all the same questions as soon as they meet you - "How long have you been here?" "Do you have a Korean girlfriend/How hot is she?" "How good is your Korean?" "How good is your job?" "How much travelling within Korea have you done?" "How many Korean friends do you have?" etc.
It's pretty sad when these same people take the same attitude towards gyopos, as I'd say that the average gyopo who has been here for a month probably has more insight into the place than the English teacher who has been here for five years.
Edited for bad writing. |
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lostandforgotten
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| So...uh...well, actually, I didn't really understand the point of your post. Who are you railing against? People who claim to have more knowledge than others about Korea? People who claim Korea is distinctly different from America and difficult for Americans to understand? Really, is that so crazy? |
You missed the point in my OP. I just meant that there's no point in comparing. I lived in Vietnam for 2 years but I wouldn't dare say to a Vietnamese-American, "I know more about Vietnam than you do because you left Vietnam when you were 6 yrs old and never went back." Obviously, I'm smarter than that! |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| So it doesn't really matter how long a gyopo has been here, even a couple of months is completely different from a couple of years for a non-gyopo. |
Not necessarily. I had one gyopo tell me that when it came to relationships age is less of an issue in Korea than it is in America, which is obviously completely ridiculous. Often what is often more important than knowledge and experience is applying that knowledge and experience in an intelligent/analytical way when trying to draw broad conclusions instead of jumping to conclusions about how relevant your own knowledge and experience are to the big picture, which applies to everyone.
Often some of the people with the most crackpot/idiotic ideas about an issue are the ones who have the most information about it/experience with it, they're just helpless at applying all of that knowledge and experience to anything useful. |
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lostandforgotten
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| So, sorry, I guess I don't really have much to say about your topic anymore as I clearly don't understand it. Sorry for getting involved. |
Don't understand the topic? Obviously you're not a deep thinker. |
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lostandforgotten
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Korean-Americans know more about what it's like to be Korean outside of Korea and are much more aware of the Korean Diaspora than a Native Korean. They also know a hell of a lot more about assimlation/integration than an average American. That's an undeniable fact.
Once Korea becomes multicultural, forms minority enclaves, produces more 2nd generation hyphenated Korean like Pakistani-Korean, Vietnamese-Korean, etc, that's when Koreans will finally begin to understand Korean-Americans and any hyphenated individuals for that matter. |
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Saxiif
Joined: 15 May 2003
Location: Seongnam
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| lostandforgotten wrote: |
Korean-Americans know more about what it's like to be Korean outside of Korea and are much more aware of the Korean Diaspora than a Native Korean. They also know a hell of a lot more about assimlation/integration than an average American. That's an undeniable fact.
Once Korea becomes multicultural, forms minority enclaves, produces more 2nd generation hyphenated Korean like Pakistani-Korean, Vietnamese-Korean, etc, that's when Koreans will finally begin to understand Korean-Americans and any hyphenated individuals for that matter. |
I'm not so sure. I think there's a real gulf in the minds of many Koreans between people from countries that are richer than Korea (and ethnic Koreans with citizenship from those countries) and people from countries that are poorer than Korea (and ethnic Koreans with citizenship from those countries). For example just look at how differently Korean-Chinese and Korean-Americans are treated in Korea. I think Korea in 50 years could look something like this:
1. Highly Westernized Seoulite upper class where the lines between upper class Korean and Korean-Americans really get blurred. Rich Koreans seem to be going to rather extreme lengths to pump Western culture into their kids.
2. Urban ethnic enclaves of Chinese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Philippines, etc, especially in some bits of Gyeonggido and around Ulsan.
3. Large numbers of kids in rural areas (especially the SW) being half Korean and half Vietnamese/Chinese.
4. An increasingly nationalistic middle class without relatively few hyphenated people in the middle getting increasingly pissed off about what is going on.
5. Significantly fewer whitey English teachers than there are now but a good bit of whitey businessmen etc. |
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