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mehmeh
Joined: 23 May 2007
Location: South, South Korea
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 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| mehmeh wrote: |
Ron Paul simply feels that it is not the place of the US to weigh in on the Burma situation. Granted, his reasoning is a little anachronistic but in terms of the philosophical underpinnings of the USA (i.e. the constitution and the Declaration of Independence as well as the writing of the founding father's) I see why he advocates this position.
Now, I'm not agreeing with Dr. Paul, though I am a Libertarian. I'm simply saying there are people in America who hold on to these founding ideals. |
Founding ideals such as human rights? Read what you wrote please. Those philosophical underpinnings from those documents are the reason why one should support this resolution.
In addition, this has nothing to do with military intervention (thereby not going against Washington's "request" in his farewell speech). |
Spoken like a true Neo-con. Does the Constitution or Dec. of Independence charge Americans with spreading our values and beliefs to any other country? A great example of what I'm talking about is America's reaction to the French Revolution. The French literally bought our freedom and now they were demanding the same rights we had from their king. When they asked America to help, Washington flat out said no. It wasn't in America's interest to wade into these things.
I agree, condemning the actions in Burma is probably the right thing to do. However, I can't hold it against someone for being hesitant. It's easy to look back in history and see how small things blow up into big messes. If you call for the ouster of the Generals or in anyway hasten their fall, then you should be the one held accountable for cleaning up the mess they leave behind...can't blame Dr. Paul for being weary of this type of situation. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mehmeh wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| mehmeh wrote: |
Ron Paul simply feels that it is not the place of the US to weigh in on the Burma situation. Granted, his reasoning is a little anachronistic but in terms of the philosophical underpinnings of the USA (i.e. the constitution and the Declaration of Independence as well as the writing of the founding father's) I see why he advocates this position.
Now, I'm not agreeing with Dr. Paul, though I am a Libertarian. I'm simply saying there are people in America who hold on to these founding ideals. |
Founding ideals such as human rights? Read what you wrote please. Those philosophical underpinnings from those documents are the reason why one should support this resolution.
In addition, this has nothing to do with military intervention (thereby not going against Washington's "request" in his farewell speech). |
Spoken like a true Neo-con. Does the Constitution or Dec. of Independence charge Americans with spreading our values and beliefs to any other country? A great example of what I'm talking about is America's reaction to the French Revolution. The French literally bought our freedom and now they were demanding the same rights we had from their king. When they asked America to help, Washington flat out said no. It wasn't in America's interest to wade into these things. |
You don't think that America aiding France in 1789 mightn't be fairly distinguished from America aiding Burma in 2007 based on available means, do you?
| Quote: |
| I agree, condemning the actions in Burma is probably the right thing to do. However, I can't hold it against someone for being hesitant. It's easy to look back in history and see how small things blow up into big messes. If you call for the ouster of the Generals or in anyway hasten their fall, then you should be the one held accountable for cleaning up the mess they leave behind...can't blame Dr. Paul for being weary of this type of situation. |
Dr. Paul also holds it against Lincoln for pursuing the civil war. Just to give some sense of the 'depth of his convictions.' |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ontheway"]Now, if you actually read the resolution:
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It calls for a lot of action through the use of sanctions, which libertarians oppose because it is a violation of the principles of individual liberty, violates the rights of American citizens, and violates the rights of individual Burmese citizens to engage in peaceful free trade. |
The US government has no business telling Americans who they ought to do business with?
How about if they wanna sell weapons to Al Qaeda?
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It calls for the use of the UN which libertarians in general, and Republicans traditionally have opposed. Why use an organization that is directly opposed to the US constitution and attempts to destroy the liberties of Americans, an organization that supports socialism and the end of liberty around the world?
This is not just a consensus resulution that says the junta is bad, dictators are bad and political prisoners should be released. It calls for misguided actions.
Finally, it is not generally accepted by economists and political scientists that sanctions will bring about desired changes. Cuba and North Korea have survived sanctions for decades. It can be quite clearly argued that sanctions have been total failures in bringing about change that leads to liberty, freedom or even democratic reforms. Sanctions do have a track record of making the innocent citizens poorer, and causing the ruling regime to become more hardline, more entrenched and more determined. Sanctions seem to have the effect of keeping dictators in power.
It seems that 413 members of the house, along with Joojoo and Jinju want the junta to stay in power forever. |
You are missing cause and effect.
The evidence is that sactions are not very effective but that is not the same as saying they keep a government in power. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Does the Constitution or Dec. of Independence charge Americans with spreading our values and beliefs to any other country |
Not exactly, but it can certainly be argued that the philosophical position taken in the founding documents was understood at the time to be universal in application.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident" was meant to say exactly that...'truths'. Not limited to residents of 18th Century North America. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Why use an organization that is directly opposed to the US constitution and attempts to destroy the liberties of Americans, an organization that supports socialism and the end of liberty around the world?
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You say this and then wonder why people think you are flakey.  |
Actually, Yata, I say this from personal inside experience. Many years ago I was at the UN involved in direct negotiations in several areas with delegations and UN ambassadors regarding the situations in the countries then known as Rhodesia and SouthWest Africa. Having met with the people, the representatives, the delegations and the Ambassadors, both formally, on the record, and off; having eaten with them casually in the delegates diningroom; having spent evenings drinking (unofficially, of course) with various UN employees, Ambassadors, even the PLO representative, a proudly admitted terrorist, I can assure you that the best thing for the US, for liberty, and for the people of the World would be for the US to withdraw from the UN and to allow it to die. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| mehmeh wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| mehmeh wrote: |
Ron Paul simply feels that it is not the place of the US to weigh in on the Burma situation. Granted, his reasoning is a little anachronistic but in terms of the philosophical underpinnings of the USA (i.e. the constitution and the Declaration of Independence as well as the writing of the founding father's) I see why he advocates this position.
Now, I'm not agreeing with Dr. Paul, though I am a Libertarian. I'm simply saying there are people in America who hold on to these founding ideals. |
Founding ideals such as human rights? Read what you wrote please. Those philosophical underpinnings from those documents are the reason why one should support this resolution.
In addition, this has nothing to do with military intervention (thereby not going against Washington's "request" in his farewell speech). |
Spoken like a true Neo-con. Does the Constitution or Dec. of Independence charge Americans with spreading our values and beliefs to any other country? A great example of what I'm talking about is America's reaction to the French Revolution. The French literally bought our freedom and now they were demanding the same rights we had from their king. When they asked America to help, Washington flat out said no. It wasn't in America's interest to wade into these things.
I agree, condemning the actions in Burma is probably the right thing to do. However, I can't hold it against someone for being hesitant. It's easy to look back in history and see how small things blow up into big messes. If you call for the ouster of the Generals or in anyway hasten their fall, then you should be the one held accountable for cleaning up the mess they leave behind...can't blame Dr. Paul for being weary of this type of situation. |
Wow. Never been called a neo-con before. Of course those documents dont "charge" us from doing anything. You argued that they in fact charged us to do the opposite. I was merely arguing that it was not the case. And as Kuros noted, our financial situation was a lot different in 1789 than 2007. We were not exactly a superpower then either. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I can assure you that the best thing for the US, for liberty, and for the people of the World would be for the US to withdraw from the UN and to allow it to die.
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Yes, I can see how eliminating a force for order, predictability and peaceful solutions would be good for the US. |
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