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Yep, those American G.I.'s are murderers.......
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:06 am Post subject:

dmbfan wrote:

2. Saddam.....for taking over power, killing his own people, WAR CRIMES, developoing and storing WMD's (he had them, man.)

I cannot believe there are still people spouting this drivel. Not even your own president believed that:

Jimmy Carter's National Security Advisor, and under Ronald Reagan - member of NSC-Defense Department Commission on Integrated Long-Term Strategy, Zbigniew Brzezinski, said, "To justify a 'war on terror' they have created a false historical narrative that they will make into a self-fulfilling prophecy." Before the House Foreign Relations Committee in February he stated, "They are preparing to stage attacks, even within the United States, that will be imputed to Iran as a casus belli....Let me cite you the memorandum of the meeting between George Bush and Tony Blair on the eve of the attack upon Iraq. The President and the Prime Minister acknowledged that there were no unconventional weapons inside Iraq, and therefore they spoke of several ways to provoke a confrontation. They were quite sensational."

cbclark4

Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:21 am Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

dmbfan wrote:

2. Saddam.....for taking over power, killing his own people, WAR CRIMES, developoing and storing WMD's (he had them, man.)

You're ignoring the truth.
Prior to the invasion.
Saddam had the weapons loaded on passenger jets.
Disguised as humanitarian aid.
The weapons were removed from Iraq and moved to Syria.
They are still there.
Unless the were destroyed by the recent airstrike by the IDF.
The exact nature of the target still a guarded secret.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:39 am Post subject:

cbclark4 wrote:

So President Bush, PM Blair, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and I are all ignoring the truth of your opinion. Yeah, OK, sure.

cbclark4

Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:47 am Post subject:

The quote says on the eve. Like the day before. Like the eleventh hour. The WMDs were shipped out during the inspection period. It's way back in one of the first post. You can jump in three pages late and postulate with an irrelevant quote.

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:51 am Post subject:

Quote:

Anyone with an ounce of historical perspective, or just common sense, has to laugh at the idea that the threat from Iraq even remotely compares to the threat from Nazi Germany. Can't you differentiate?

I didn't say Iraq, I said Islamism; in that I mean fundamentalist Islamic political ideals.

The threat is just the same. One nation or peoples idea's are supposed to supercede others. The Nazi's just didn't kill germans, they attacked all people they considered wrong, even those people from countries who supported them.

Islamic fundamentalists wont just stop at Iraq; If you believe that if the western liberal idealogy is crushed in the Islamic world, then all will be right in the world, I have a few questions to ask.

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:56 am Post subject:

Quote:

Why is it always WW2 this and WW2 that? You think WW2 gives America a free pass to fight anyone from now on

The reason that it is raised is because in WW2, the allies used excessive force. Not just against military targets but also civilian ones. They used that to win a war, one that if they had lost may have changed the world for the worst.

Today, we also face an enemy ( an idea if not a physical force ) that if we lose too, may change the world to one that is worse. Should we give up all options available to win the war? Or is this a war, we subcounciously want to lose?

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:57 am Post subject:

Summer Wine wrote:

Islamic fundamentalists wont just stop at Iraq; If you believe that if the western liberal idealogy is crushed in the Islamic world, then all will be right in the world, I have a few questions to ask.

If one deranged "Pro-lifer" (An oxymoron if one ever existed...) comes up to you and says they're going to kill all those getting abortions, abortion doctors and their staffs, do you believe it to be a legitimate threat?

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:00 am Post subject:

cbclark4 wrote:

It's way back in one of the first post.

Ah, you mean the opinion piece with not one factual piece of evidence?

Interesting.

9/11: evidence is not evidence!

Iraq: no evidence is evidence!

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:18 am Post subject:

Quote:

Not until they carried it out, but if they died doing it and then a larger number continued his ideals in further bombings, I may consider it a serious threat.

To use that analogy.

If 19 guys fly a plane into a building.

If a war subsequently occured that has been carried on for 4+ years by people calling for an Islamic state.

If an increase in violence around the world in the name of Islamic fundamentalism occurs;

I would be more than willing to consider arguments made in the 1990's that I read, heard verbally as being a precursor to the same issues I face today.

I would also consider the issues that I have read about in the present as supporting the arguments that I heard about in the past and consider that it may be more problematic than one person: Who claims to desire blowing up abortion clinics.

I understand the point that you are trying to make; though I feel you are wrong if you don't look at the real danger that Islamisim poses, not just to our way of life but also the moderate muslims and try to help make a better life.

dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:20 am Post subject:

Quote:

LOL!

OK, did you know that Saddam did not give one rats arss about Islam? Did you know that he was out to rule the Arab nations? How about the Baath party?

Oh, and what about the mass graves that were found?
For example...........

Quote:

'Saddam's Secret's' by Georges Sadda......pages 196-199.

"After the first Gulf War ended in 1991, and to a much greater extent since April 2003, international agencies have been able to examine areas in Iraq that had previously been off limits. So they went in to determine if rumors of mass graves in Iraq were true. The fact is, mass graves were being used in Iraq for many years before 1991. The Batthis had used mass murder as a tool for decades, and the tragedy of what happened to the Kurds in the north at the hands of Chemical Ali was well known long before the Gulf War began. Kurds were taken from their homes and villages and massacred in the tends of thousands.

It was not until the investigations of 2003, however, that those Kurdish graves were finally uncovered, and what they discovered was horrifying. Thousands of men, women and children from teh nothern regions, referred to as Kurdistan, had been seized and taken from their homes in the north, massacred, and buried in the south. The people who opened the graves knew immediately where the victims were from teh bits of clothing that remained on the bodies. Some remnants of their distinctive Kurdish garments were still intact.

We also know that thousands more were taken from Halabja and murdered somewhere near Babylon in the south. So long as Kurdistan was being protected by the American forces based in Turkey, the Kurds had a measure of protection. But when the left in 1991, Saddam ordered his soldiers to take these these people as prisoners and execute them. They massacred them in the tens of thousands and buried them in military camps where the U.N. peacekeepers and international forces could not go. There was vast areas within the threee biggest military bases in the south where mass graves were dug, and Saddam believed no one would ever know the difference.

The graves were well hidden, and access to those sites was strictly prohibited by the military and the government. But even before liberation in 2003, people would sneak into those areas at night and dig, hoping to find evidence of their loved ones and even entire families that had been taken away and killed. Imagine their horror when dogs began digging in the graves and pulling out parts of human bodies. Finally, after 2003, the camps were opened and hundreds of searchers showed up, digging for evidence of the atrocities that had taken place under Saddam.

Human rights organizations, peace activists, private religious groups, and many others were part of this. And in some cases they had access to satellite imagery that showed them the most likely places where mass graves could exist There's still so much that we don't know. But many official records from the Saddam era are now being brought to light, andthe agencies are finding long lists with the names of those killed, how and when they were killed, and even who did the killing. But it will be years, I suspect, before thew whole dark secret of Saddam's savagery is known.

Consequently, Saddam thought nothing of capturing, torturing, and killing thse people. Especialy in the south, where the majority of Iraqi Shia live, he kept the people of th region in constant fear. Soem families lost four, five or six members in a single day. And because it was impractical to put so many people in prisions-many times the intelligence officers would round up thousands of them-they usually ended up in mass graves.

The persecution of the Marsh Arabs, wh live in the wetlands to the east of Nasiriyah and south almost to Basra, was very much the same. Saddam was afraid of these people, who live and make thier living in a very different way from most Iraqis. Because of their unique customs and fiercely independent nature, the Marsh Arabs were amonth the first to challenge Saddam's edicts, and he feared that one day they would rise up againsthim. Because they lived in the land betweent he Tigris and Eurphrates Rivers, where tanks and heavy vehicles couldn't go, he decided that the best way to control them would be to drain the marhes, fill them in, and then drive the people off the land.

This was an ambitious project because the marshlands cover an enormous area-more then 7,500 squre miles, and area equal to the state of Massachusetts. But over a period of years, the miltary engineers sent in by Saddam were able to divert the rvers and reduce the size of the marshlands to less then 500 square miles. Less then a third of the land was spared, and the way of life of these people, who depended on teh rice crops, fishing, water birds of all kinds, and an active river commerce, was shattered. Water was the basis of their entire civilization. But this wasn't even the worst of it, because once tanks and armored vehicles began penetrating that territory, the rounded up men, women, and children, and marched them off to places where they, too, were killed and buried in mass graves.

Saddam took revenge on anyone he believed had worked against him in the past or who might be a threat to him in the future, and he did it in the most brutal ways imgainable. This is wher the mass graves and torture chambers came from, and those things are a dark stain on the history of our country. I am clinced to blieve that the unofficial estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 deaths wouldn't be unrealistic, and it could be substantially higher."

igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:30 am Post subject:

Privateer wrote:

Irony here of course is that AmeriKa = the 4th Reich

Framing & blaming weak scapegoats is a key counter-measure to portraying oneself as the people's champion Idea

How can anyone considering themself a person of conscience support such obviously deluded jingoist criminality?

dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

Irony here of course is that AmeriKa = the 4th Reich

Framing & blaming weak scapegoats is a key counter-measure to portraying oneself as the people's champion

How can anyone considering themself a person of conscience support such obviously deluded jingoist criminality?

Irony? No, there is nothing ironic about you NOT being able to come up with anything credible. There is nothing ironic about how you keep dodging numerous posts, when they propose clear counter points to your deluded rationalizations.

Nope.,..not ironic at all.

dmbfan

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:40 am Post subject:

cbclark4 wrote:

The quote says on the eve.

Like the day before.

Like the eleventh hour.

He was not only the president but the commander-in-chief. He could have called it off before it began.

cbclark4 wrote:

The WMDs were shipped out during the inspection period.

You have provided no documentation of this.

cbclark4 wrote:

You can jump in three pages late and postulate with an irrelevant quote.

You mentioned WMDs. How is Bush and Blair talking about them irrelevant?

And sorry if I don't live on this board.

dmbfan

Joined: 09 Mar 2006

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:44 am Post subject:

Quote:

cbclark4 wrote:
The quote says on the eve.

Like the day before.

Like the eleventh hour.

He was not only the president but the commander-in-chief. He could have called it off before it began.

cbclark4 wrote:
The WMDs were shipped out during the inspection period.

You have provided no documentation of this.

cbclark4 wrote:
You can jump in three pages late and postulate with an irrelevant quote.

You mentioned WMDs. How is Bush and Blair talking about them irrelevant?

And sorry if I don't live on this board.

Quote:

No need to apologize. But, the WMD sources have been posted here. You have have to dig around. The sources have been made known.

dmbfan

keane

Joined: 09 Jul 2007

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:56 am Post subject:

Summer Wine wrote:

Quote:

Not until they carried it out, but if they died doing it and then a larger number continued his ideals in further bombings, I may consider it a serious threat.

Very well, then, America is full of murdering pro-lifers because what you just typed is already a fact of life in America.

Well done.

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