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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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For the love of me, I will never understand this global warming crap. IT IS CRAP! For chrissakes people! All of Canada was once covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice! Now, it is not. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe that was our fault.
Now. Forget about all this global warming crap and lets just do the right thing. Just stop polluting our environment if we have the means to do things more cleanly.
For f#ck sakes people! There are wars and famines raging around the world. Doesnt something like 2/3 the world's population live in poverty!? There are better things than this to spend our time on. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Location: Coquitlam, BC
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
For the love of me, I will never understand this global warming crap. IT IS CRAP! For chrissakes people! All of Canada was once covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice! Now, it is not. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe that was our fault.
Now. Forget about all this global warming crap and lets just do the right thing. Just stop polluting our environment if we have the means to do things more cleanly.
For f#ck sakes people! There are wars and famines raging around the world. Doesnt something like 2/3 the world's population live in poverty!? There are better things than this to spend our time on. |
I totally agree with you! |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Compunction Junction
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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For f#ck sakes people! There are wars and famines raging around the world. Doesnt something like 2/3 the world's population live in poverty!? There are better things than this to spend our time on. |
A recent Time magazine feature focussed on the fact that world hunger is being dealt with and improvements are being made.
The simple fact is, so long as there are very rich people, there will be poor people.
The global warming issue may not seem urgent right now. But let's just think that MAYBE it's hapenning: The possible effects of global warming would/could be more profound than anything you can imagine right now. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Surely, global warming is an issue. All the politics around it, however, well that is another story. So let's say that global warming is happening. Fine its a natural event. Let's stop building cities where they shouldn't exist. Let's stop destroying natural habitat which could act as a barrier against some of the effects of global warming. Let's admit we can't just run amok doing whatever we wish, wherever we wish.
Or we can blame big companies for causing it ALL and take no responsibility whatsover for deciding to build our cities in deserts, on flood plains or on coastal regions laying barely above sea level.  |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| For the love of me, I will never understand this global warming crap. IT IS CRAP! For chrissakes people! All of Canada was once covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice! Now, it is not. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe that was our fault. |
I am responding to this post and one further down... or, above.
It's crap is it? By that you mean it is natural? No. The initiation of global warming is natural. It's continuation is usually natural. That is not the problem. The problem is that human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability, so all bets are off. Since this has never happened in the history of the planet, we can't be sure what will happen. This bull crap that you spout that it's all just natural ignores the reality of the above.
One problem with global warming is that human beings have not existed in the kinds of environments that are coming. How can we adapt to conditions of a planet 3,4,5 or 6 degrees C higher? You realize that average implies extremes of heat far higher, right? Are you prepared for 45 - 50 C summers? Those are lethal temps for many humans, particularly for sustained periods. How fast can we adapt? Are your kids going to be able to adapt? Your grandchildren?
You need to read up on rapid climate change. You got a perfect example of it this summer with the melting of the Arctic ice. Rapid change - meaning a complete change of climate within a decade - is a real phenomenon under the best of conditions. The best-known example is during the two Dryas periods, one of which resulted in the slow down of the ocean conveyor system and turned Europe into an ice block. A similar thing happened just a few centuries ago, but to a lesser extent.
Your corporate apologies are not at all interesting. One, who is blaming the corporations? Not me. Not the people I read. I see a lot of criticism of the handling of the past 150 years, but I don't see it blamed solely on corporations. What we DO see, and rightfully so, is harsh criticism of corporations for intentionally misleading the public and the government on these issues. Yes, I mean Exxon, for one. The auto companies have resisted changes that were well within their technical abilities for decades. Generalizing these just criticisms to all corporations is ridiculous. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| The problem is that human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability, so all bets are off. |
Really? Human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability? Like the natural variability between Canada being completely covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice and what we have now? More variance than any of the other eras which saw huge tropical swamplands covering the globe?
So what should i worry about? The possibility that we are causing the earth to warm up a bit or the next ice age/swampification?
The fact is, humans will have to adapt no matter whether you believe in global warming or not. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The problem is that human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability, so all bets are off. |
Really? Human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability? Like the natural variability between Canada being completely covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice and what we have now? More variance than any of the other eras which saw huge tropical swamplands covering the globe?
So what should i worry about? The possibility that we are causing the earth to warm up a bit or the next ice age/swampification?
The fact is, humans will have to adapt no matter whether you believe in global warming or not. |
Your examples are childishly simple, meaning without any degree of sophistication. Sure, the dinosaurs lived in a very, very warm era. But why? And what preceded that era? Do you know? No, you don't. You are doing what kids do: spouting examples that are not actually relevant, but that seem dramatic. How can you, for example, attempt to claim that climate of 65M years ago is more relevant than the climate of the last 600,000 years? It's foolish on the face of it. The cycles of the last 600,000 years have been quite steady. Cold, warm, cold warm, cold warm. They didn't veer off into Ice Box Earth or Sauna Earth. This has, in part, to do with the movement of the Earth through the solar system. It also likely has to do with the Earth NOT getting pelted with huge space rocks and such to the same degree it used to due to them being used up over time and, frankly, good luck. Further, the Earth has slowly cooled. It was a more geologically active place in the past. These and many other effects played a part in the various climates that have existed through time. But those are not considered by you. It's all just "natural" and, even if natural, if we push it a bit farther, what's the big whoop? Naive.
The fact is, before the industrial age, the Earth's temps were climbing at a nice sedate pace. They are now climbing far faster. CO2 is far higher than at any time in the last 600,000 years. Given the Earth has been a lot warmer than now at times during those 600,000 years at lower concentrations of CO2 signals to the intelligent that the changes that are coming may be utterly unpredictable. (Where scientists were pretty sure the poles wouldn't melt for hundreds, if not thousands of years just a few years ago, Hansen, for one, is saying we could see rapid ice sheet deterioration leading to 3, 4 or even 5 meters of rise within this century.)
100 years to adjust vs. 1000 is a huge difference. You want to pretend it isn't? Go ahead. But it is a ridiculous stance to take. It is a selfish stance to take. It is an irresponsible stance to take. Perhaps you are a Darwinist? Let them eat cake, then die? |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Location: Coquitlam, BC
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
| 100 years to adjust vs. 1000 is a huge difference. You want to pretend it isn't? Go ahead. But it is a ridiculous stance to take. It is a selfish stance to take. It is an irresponsible stance to take. |
Well, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go buy land on the Antartic coast?! A selfish stance. Pfw!! Why not look at the selfishness of the NGO's keeping Africa poor (making them use expensive unreliable solar power). Your science isn't backed up by real scientists. The IPCC are a complete joke! |
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cerulean808

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Harpeau
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| your science isn't backed up by real scientists. |
Yes it is. It is your position which has no science behind it, only big money propaganda from corporations. |
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cerulean808

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some of Harpeau's weasel friends:
Robert Balling, Jr., Ph.D., Director, Office of Climatology, Arizona State University. Received funding from and/or was underwritten by the Kuwaiti government and foreign coal mining corporations and also from the Cyprus Minerals Company. (Ozone Action, http://www.Ozone.org; accessed 3/1/00); Gelbspan, R., The Heat is On (Perseus Books, 1998 updated ed.), pp. 44-6) Received over $300,000 in research funding and honoraria from oil companies and the Kuwaiti government. (Lingua Franca, June/July, 1997; p. 53) Scientific advisor for the Greening Earth Society, which is funded by the Western Fuels Association. (http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/advisors.htm; accessed 4/30/01) It has been reported that since the mid-1980's more than 25 percent of his money has come from companies with vested interests in carbon dioxide-producing fossil fuels. And nearly all that money has funded research critical of greenhouse theory. Also he has received funding from Exxon Corporation, the German Coal Mining Association, and the British Coal Corporation. (Slivka, Judd "Science for Hire in Debate Over Warming," Arizona Republic, 3/25/01) In another report, Dr. Balling states that he has "received $408,000 in research support from fossil-fuel industries in the past 10 years." (Chron. Higher Ed., 5/22/98, A41)
David Legates, Ph.D., Associate Professor in Climatology, University of Delaware, Newark. Chief research scientist, Southern Regional Climate Center in Baton Rouge. (http://www.marshall.org/experts.php?id=66; accessed 5/2/05) Author of a report that disputes the role of human activity in global warming trends sponsored by the National Center for Policy Analysis, an organization receiving funding from ExxonMobil, the DaimlerChrysler Corporation, and the El Paso Energy Foundation, among others. (Foundation Center - Foundation Directory Online; accessed 2/24/03; U.S. Newswire, �Climatologist exposes cracks in global warming foundation� 7/12/04) Co-authored �Reconstructing climatic and environmental changes of the past 1000 years: a reappraisal� in the journal Energy and Environment, claiming that global fluctuations in temperature are not anomalous, a project that was supported in part by the American Petroleum Institute. Adjunct scholar, National Center for Policy Analysis, a think-tank sponsored by ExxonMobil, the Daimler Chrysler Corporation and the El Paso Energy Foundation, among others. (U.S. Newswire, �NCPA Earth Day briefing on global warming: what do we really know vs. what we are told,� 4/22/04) Research scientist, Computational Geosciences, Inc. (U.S. Newswire, �Author critical of climate change report available for interviews Friday morning,� 11/1/00) Editor of Western Fuels� annual �State of the Climate� report. (Henderson, Paula. �Global warming controversy,� The Advocate, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 6/2/99, p. 8 )
Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Dept. of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia. Virginia State Climatologist. Senior Fellow at the Cato Institute. Received funding from the Intermountain Rural Electric Association.(�Leading Skeptic of Global Warming Hired for $100,000,� Rocky Mountain News, 8/3/06, p.25A) Carbon-emitting industries like oil and coal "fund friendly scientists like Pat Michaels." ("Was Confusion Over Global Warming a Con Job?" ABC Evening News, March 26, 2006) �Scientific advisor for the Greening Earth Society, which is funded by the Western Fuels Association. (http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/advisors.htm April 30, 2001) Funding from and/or was underwritten by the Western Fuels Association (a consortium of coal interests), German and American coal interests, Cyprus Minerals Company. (Ozone Action, http://www.Ozone.org, 3-1-2000; and Ross Gelbspan, The Heat is On, Perseus Books, 1998 updated, pp. 40-3, 202-11) "Michaels has received more than $115,000 over the last four years from coal and energy interests. World Climate Review, a quarterly he founded that routinely debunks climate concerns, was funded by Western Fuels." (Ross Gelbspan, �The Heat Is On: the warning on the world�s climate sparks a blaze of denial,� Harper�s Magazine, December 1995)
Willie H. Soon, Ph.D., Research Scientist, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA. Astronomer, Mount Wilson Observatory, CA. Research paper in the journal Energy and Environment, �Reconstructing climatic and environmental changes of the past 1000 years: a reappraisal,� claiming that the global fluctuations in temperature are not anomalous, was supported in part by the American Petroleum Institute. Paid senior scientist for the George C. Marshall Institute, an organization that has received $90,000 in donations from ExxonMobil in 2002, $80,000 of which was earmarked for the Global Climate Change Program. Science director, Center for Science and Public Policy (a.k.a., Center for Sound Science and Public Policy) of the Frontiers of Freedom Foundation, an organization that has received $232,000 from ExxonMobil in 2002. Lead author of a report criticizing the EPA on mercury regulations; report was sponsored by the Frontiers of Freedom Foundation. (Mooney, Chris. �Earth Last,� The American Prospect, 5/04, p.28;http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=George_C._Marshall_Institute; accessed 01/28/04) Scientific advisor for the Greening Earth Society, which is funded by the Western Fuels Association. ( http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/advisors.htm ; accessed 4/30/01) |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="keane"]
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The problem is that human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability, so all bets are off. |
Really? Human action is driving conditions beyond natural variability? Like the natural variability between Canada being completely covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice and what we have now? More variance than any of the other eras which saw huge tropical swamplands covering the globe?
So what should i worry about? The possibility that we are causing the earth to warm up a bit or the next ice age/swampification?
The fact is, humans will have to adapt no matter whether you believe in global warming or not. |
| Quote: |
| Your examples are childishly simple, meaning without any degree of sophistication. Sure, the dinosaurs lived in a very, very warm era. But why? And what preceded that era? Do you know? No, you don't. You are doing what kids do: spouting examples that are not actually relevant, but that seem dramatic. |
Well, well,well. Touche! You are entirely correct in your assumptions sir. I have NO idea what preceeded the era of dinosaurs. They just showed up one day didn't they? And all their dinosaur flatulence had the unforseen effect of actually cooling the earth, that's what happened didn't it? I saw it in a cartoon once. Do you see a little hypocrisy in assuming to know what other people know or don't know and then labelling them childish?
Let me see if I can't be a little more "adult" for you. Let me see if I can't find 100 links by various scientists that argue against a man made cause for global warming. Oh but wait, then you will just find 100 links showing how we are the cause of global warming. But HA HA! I will not be out done! I will find 200 more links showing that it's not our fault! Counter that! counter those debating skills! Oh shit, you just found 300 links saying that it IS actually all our fault. Well, I've been profoundly beaten. I'll slink away until I can find 400 new links and we can continue our adult conversation.
By the way, when someone adds a little at the end of their sentence it usually indicates they are being a little tongue in cheek. I'll see if I can find any links to back up that assertion.
Oh, I almost forgot. Thank you for the definition of "childshly simple". I've always find it reallly hard to comprehend the meaning of two very simple words when put in that adverb+adjective form. *beep*. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003 Location: Coquitlam, BC
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Those weasels are not my friends. Many scientists that demonstrate how apocryphal global warming to be are not paid off by the oil companies. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005 Location: $eoul
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) wrote: |
From new estimates of the combined anthropogenic forcing due to greenhouse gases, aerosols, and land surface changes, it is extremely likely that human activities have exerted a substantial net warming influence on climate since 1750.
"Extremely likely" indicates probabilities greater than 95% |
This has been endorsed by at least 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including of the major industrialized countries. So, explain your scepticism to these people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change.
Seriously though, if you've got some objections to the scientific consensus, write a paper on it and get it peer-reviewed. And if you've good evidence for an international scientific consensus being fraudulent with information, write a paper on that too.
| Realclimate.org ('climate science from climate scientists') wrote: |
| Every now and again, the myth that "we shouldn't believe global warming predictions now, because in the 1970's they were predicting an ice age and/or cooling" surfaces. But it is not an argument used by respectable and knowledgeable skeptics, because it crumbles under analysis. |
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/
| Wikipedia wrote: |
| The global cooling hypothesis never had significant scientific support, but gained temporary popular attention |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling
Mars' warming explained here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
For the love of me, I will never understand this global warming crap. IT IS CRAP! For chrissakes people! All of Canada was once covered by a kilometer thick sheet of ice! Now, it is not. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe that was our fault.
Now. Forget about all this global warming crap and lets just do the right thing. Just stop polluting our environment if we have the means to do things more cleanly.
For f#ck sakes people! There are wars and famines raging around the world. Doesnt something like 2/3 the world's population live in poverty!? There are better things than this to spend our time on. |
Well:
a) Your lack of understanding does not imply anything but itself. It certainly doesn't imply that the science is wrong.
b) And lets consider what would happen when the rest of the ice goes. You feel like moving all the coastal cities inland? You need to remember that we are perturbing the whole biosphere. The results are not easy to predict. And thats a cause for concern, not relief. Uncertainty is bad for business. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Harpeau wrote: |
| Your science isn't backed up by real scientists. The IPCC are a complete joke! |
Nah... all those core drillers, the head of NASA's climate program... idiots, the lot of them.
Ignorance is one thing. Willful ignorance is another. You embarrass yourself. |
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