Korean Job Discussion Forums

[posco's trumpet]

[hadeshorn]

Yeah I lost count of the amount of times I bumped into people and said a hasty appology when I first came here. Now im just like.. Screw it.. They dont appologise.. Neither do I.. But since Im a big guy.. I give quite as good as I get!

[mithridates]

I remember saying thank you to a Korean friend of mine who bought me dinner a long time ago, who then asked me why I said that since we were friends and that I should expect things like that...
I just got back from a trip to Japan and though they are more polite looking it's sometimes like walking through a minefield, remembering how polite to be to someone and how sorry to be to somebody else for something; Japanese won't tell you to your face how they feel very often. So I actually feel quite relaxed being back in Korea this time.
Although I should say that the farther west you go in Japan the more casual they get. I love people from Kyushu.
The interesting thing about the two countries is that they are both small and densely populated; were Canada this crowded people might be at each others throats quite a bit. Japan's compensated by a strict code of politeness to keep the surface looking calm and pristine while Korea has compensated by just not caring about small things like sorry, please and thank you.
That's the way I see it...

[posco's trumpet]

[Cthulhu]

On the one hand I can appreciate the concept that minor body contact might be insufficient to warrant an apology if apologies in Korea are designed to be weighty and only used for significant purposes. If it lived up to this ideal I suppose I could accept that Korea goes against the grain with much of the world if they do it sincerely (though I heard many people say similar things about Eastern Europeans and rudeness). No one is required to mold their customs to others; if they suffer for it then they suffer. Koreans can choose to change or choose not to. We shouldn't expect them to do it because we think it's good for them.

On the other hand there are casual expressions for apologies around because young people use them all the time when they bump, bother or do anything untoward their elders. I hear it spoken on buses, subways, hell even on TV dramas in very minor situations. They aren't used often enough, but both mianhamnida and chaesonghamnida (apologies for the transliterations) are used and do exist. The Joongang Ilbo avoided the whole Confucian angle to it (you don't exist until you are introduced so I have no problem being rude to you) thus avoiding shining a light into that undesirable Confucian corner. Just my opinion.

[Ya-ta Boy]

I see two things at work here.

One is a conflict between the sense of social space. Since we westerners claim a much bigger space we are hypersensitive when it is so routinely violated here. I once ran out of Migliore because it was so crowded I couldn't take it.

The other thing is judging another culture by foreign standards. I think the newspaper is on to something. I've read elsewhere that Koreans seldom compromise because it is a sign of weakness. An apology may be in the same category of seriousness.

I guess I'm different from you. I don't really care all that much when someone fails to apologize for bumping into me. What gets me is the bumping itself. That I find hard to take.

[posco's trumpet]

[Paji eh Wong]

Okay, I'm going to play devils advocate.

A Korean might argue that english has no formal, powerful words of apology. If you say "sorry" or "excuse me" when you bump into people on the street, what word do you use when you run someone over in your car?

In my mind, the lack of apologies in the street is tied to two other things: differences in the appropriacy of displays of emotion, and accepting responsiblity for actions. I think this is where the lack of 'apology language' comes from.

[Hyalucent]

[posco's trumpet]

[matthewwoodford]

I don't know the reason for the pushing and shoving but it can't be overcrowding or Confucianism or it would be the same in China. Hmmm, maybe it *is* the same in China? Well probably not....

[shevek]

In the Netherlands in the city I lived in briefly, people were almost as pushy and unnoticing of personal space as here in Seoul.
I appreciate the fact that the lack of a need to a apoligize applies to me as well as to the people who bump me. I like not feeling rude and pushy for moving through a crowd and in the process dislocating people bodily. I don't usually feel like I did anything I need to apologize for and it seems somewhat refreshing to not be expected to. Of course, there have been a few times I've felt like I've been cut off rudely and not unintentionally and then I shove back in a way that I ought to be apologizing for but don't.

[posco's trumpet]

[Homer]

Posco...that was a shattering political and cultural analysis of Korea and its future place on the "world stage"....

[katydid]

I USED to be utterly polite whenever I literally bumped into someone on the street. But then I realized if I did that, I would always be apologizing and no one ever said the same to me. So, such is the joy of living in the city.
If I ever leveled someone you can be sure I would profusely apologize. Wish the friggin ajummas would do the same though...
Now, when I am on a bus, and even if the bus is moving herky-jerky down the street, if someone stands up, using the back of my seat for support, if they whap me on the head, even by accident, you better believe I will glare at them. A whap hurts much more than a bump.