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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: The U.S. IS a fascist State... |
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according to the two following definitions/descriptions. The first is a scholarly definition/description. It was written in 1996, but sounds so much like current conditions it is eerie:
What is Fascism? Some General Ideological Features
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by Matthew N. Lyons
I am skeptical of efforts to produce a "definition" of fascism. As a dynamic historical current, fascism has taken many different forms, and has evolved dramatically in some ways. To understand what fascism has encompassed as a movement and a system of rule, we have to look at its historical context and development--as a form of counter-revolutionary politics that first arose in early twentieth-century Europe in response to rapid social upheaval, the devastation of World War I, and the Bolshevik Revolution. The following paragraphs are intented as an initial, open-ended sketch.
Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. Often, but not always, it promotes racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide. At the same time, fascists may embrace a form of internationalism based on either racial or ideological solidarity across national boundaries. Usually fascism espouses open male supremacy, though sometimes it may also promote female solidarity and new opportunities for women of the privileged nation or race.
Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies--and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.
Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.
Fascism has a complex relationship with established elites and the non-fascist right. It is never a mere puppet of the ruling class, but an autonomous movement with its own social base. In practice, fascism defends capitalism against instability and the left, but also pursues an agenda that sometimes clashes with capitalist interests in significant ways. There has been much cooperation, competition, and interaction between fascism and other sections of the right, producing various hybrid movements and regimes. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Why do you hate? |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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The second is a quote from Ralph Nader. I don't know the provenance of the quoted definition.
The transcription, and any errors, are mine. Ir cn be found below or on YouTube.
Nader on Corporate Fascism
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Fascism is when concentrated economic power takes government away from the people, turns the government away from the people, turns the government into a guarantor,a subsidizor, a covering of corporate power.
Corporations have their executives in high government positions. They have 35,000 full time lobbyists here, like the drug companies, getting all sorts of subsidies from Congress and they have 10,000 PACs. If you could quantify corporate power and civic power in Washington, D.C., civic power is probably 1% of corporate power. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Why do you hate? |
Why do you lie? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to recommend Erich Fromm's 'Escape From Freedom' to anyone interested in the Fascist mind-set/personality. Parts of it require some heavy lifting, but most of it is clear and revealing. If you're interested in politics, I think you can't get a better insight into the authoritarian personality than in Fromm.
As to the claim made in the thread title: Nonsense.
The extremists on the far Right might wish to make us a fascist state, and we have moved closer to that end of the political spectrum during the last 7 years, but we aren't 'there' yet. Nor will we. The reaction set in last November and will almost certainly continue next November.
Last edited by Ya-ta Boy on Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Why do we argue?
Hahahaha!
*milwaukiedave pats himself on the back for making a funny* |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Why do you hate? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Why do you hate? |
Why do you lie? |
Define lie?
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Judging from his farewell to the nation speech, President Eisenhauer clearly saw something quite sinsiter on the rise.
BEWARE THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
So did Orwell & Huxley 
4th Reich AmeriKa has been esp. obvious to many since Nov. 22nd, 1963.
"You can fool some of the people some of the time ..." |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
| Define lie? |
Virtually anything said by you. More importantly, why do you fear me? |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Corporations have their executives in high government positions. They have 35,000 full time lobbyists here, like the drug companies, getting all sorts of subsidies from Congress and they have 10,000 PACs. If you could quantify corporate power and civic power in Washington, D.C., civic power is probably 1% of corporate power. |
There is a simple solution to all of this. It is to reduce the size of government. That is what people on the Right want; smaller government. It is amazing that people on the left decry extremism and fascism, yet the only thing they want to do is expand the size of government interference in our lives.
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| The extremists on the far Right might wish to make us a fascist state, and we have moved closer to that end of the political spectrum during the last 7 years, but we aren't 'there' yet. Nor will we. The reaction set in last November and will almost certainly continue next November. |
Indeed, and a Democrat elected tsunami will be riding the waves into government in 2008. I even suspect they will have a filibuster proof Senate. The Republican Party had an opportunity to be good rulers, but the only thing they did was expand government and waste the peoples' money, not to mention the other criminal scandals afflicting Republican members of Congress. The largest constituency of the Republican Party remains to be fiscal conservatives who wish to see not only lower taxes but a reduced government. A reduced government means fewer chances for fraud waste and abuse. It also means a less chance of these ridiculous worries about fascist states. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| There is a simple solution to all of this. It is to reduce the size of government. That is what people on the Right want; smaller government. |
Hahahahahaha!!! Show us this! Homeland Security added HOW MUCH size to government and is supported by WHOM?
Homeland Security gives you NO privacy anymore, and is supported by WHOM?
Let me repreat: Hahahahahaha!!!
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| It is amazing that people on the left decry extremism and fascism, yet the only thing they want to do is expand the size of government interference in our lives. |
Hahahahahaha! WHO wants to get rid of Homeland Insecurity? The RIGHT? No. Hahahahahahaha!
The biggest expansion of government in the history of the US was performed by whom? The RIGHT? That's right! Hahahahahahahaha!
Reagan, Bush and now Bush ALL increased government's size and intrusiveness in our lives.
Hahahahahahahaha!
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| Quote: |
| The extremists on the far Right might wish to make us a fascist state, and we have moved closer to that end of the political spectrum during the last 7 years, but we aren't 'there' yet. Nor will we. The reaction set in last November and will almost certainly continue next November. |
Indeed, and a Democrat elected tsunami will be riding the waves into government in 2008. I even suspect they will have a filibuster proof Senate. The Republican Party had an opportunity to be good rulers, but the only thing they did was expand government and waste the peoples' money, not to mention the other criminal scandals afflicting Republican members of Congress. The largest constituency of the Republican Party remains to be fiscal conservatives who wish to see not only lower taxes but a reduced government. |
[/quote]
Let's hope for all our sakes that no republican is elected, and if so, that it is Ron Paul. That is the only chance you have of the above happening if a republican gets in. Hell, half the Dems are nearly as bad. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Counter-argument
In the US:
(1) The rights of citizens are upheld. The Legislature has tried to hand over Habeaus Corpus, but since it has not been invoked yet, Judicial review has not been able to slap it down.
(2)
(a) The military is volunteer.
(b) Participation in the military is not required to exercise the right to vote
(3) The market is regulated but largely laissez-faire. The most significant checks on corporations, which are never gov't owned, are through tort negligence/product liability. The Fed central bank system has released control over much of what it used to control (or would have controlled) 10 years ago.
(4) Freedom of Speech is alive and well.
(5) System for democratic transition is stable and intact. Vote counting is problematic in some districts, but allegations of fraud at least have not panned out (error is another thing entirely). The transfer of power, both Legislative and Executive, occurs peacefully and as provided by the Constitution. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| keane wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
| There is a simple solution to all of this. It is to reduce the size of government. That is what people on the Right want; smaller government. |
Hahahahahaha!!! Show us this! Homeland Security added HOW MUCH size to government and is supported by WHOM?
Homeland Security gives you NO privacy anymore, and is supported by WHOM?
Let me repreat: Hahahahahaha!!!
| Quote: |
| It is amazing that people on the left decry extremism and fascism, yet the only thing they want to do is expand the size of government interference in our lives. |
Hahahahahaha! WHO wants to get rid of Homeland Insecurity? The RIGHT? No. Hahahahahahaha!
The biggest expansion of government in the history of the US was performed by whom? The RIGHT? That's right! Hahahahahahahaha!
Reagan, Bush and now Bush ALL increased government's size and intrusiveness in our lives.
Hahahahahahahaha!
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| The extremists on the far Right might wish to make us a fascist state, and we have moved closer to that end of the political spectrum during the last 7 years, but we aren't 'there' yet. Nor will we. The reaction set in last November and will almost certainly continue next November. |
Indeed, and a Democrat elected tsunami will be riding the waves into government in 2008. I even suspect they will have a filibuster proof Senate. The Republican Party had an opportunity to be good rulers, but the only thing they did was expand government and waste the peoples' money, not to mention the other criminal scandals afflicting Republican members of Congress. The largest constituency of the Republican Party remains to be fiscal conservatives who wish to see not only lower taxes but a reduced government. |
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Let's hope for all our sakes that no republican is elected, and if so, that it is Ron Paul. That is the only chance you have of the above happening if a republican gets in. Hell, half the Dems are nearly as bad.[/quote]
Aren't you the one who accuses others of being childish?
Speaking of hypocrites... See above 
At any rate, yes, Republicans are extremely disappointed with thier Republican Members of Congress as well as Bush. Reduce taxes, reduce spending and reduce the size of government. They only got one right.
Though we can't completely blame Bush. He needed a lot of that money for troops out in the field and I don't blame him for supporting them.
So yes, you're right. Two things need to happen:
1. Get rid of these ridiculous earmarks.
2. Give the President the line item veto.
These two acts alone will greatly reduce needless spending. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
So yes, you're right. Two things need to happen:
1. Get rid of these ridiculous earmarks.
2. Give the President the line item veto.
These two acts alone will greatly reduce needless spending. |
To (1),
The problem is anonymous earmarks. Nevertheless, I wouldn't mind contractors having to actually bid on projects, rather than throwing money at their local legislator.
To (2),
Giving a President the line item veto is a little bit too much power. A President should be given the line item veto only for budgetary matters. This makes sense, in a way. If the Executive is not willing to accept the money, it shouldn't have to. But if 2/3ds of Congress thinks it so necessary, they can force in the line-item as a particular bill. |
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