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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: The U.S. IS a fascist State... |
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| keane wrote: |
according to the two following definitions/descriptions. The first is a scholarly definition/description. It was written in 1996, but sounds so much like current conditions it is eerie:
What is Fascism? Some General Ideological Features
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by Matthew N. Lyons
I am skeptical of efforts to produce a "definition" of fascism. As a dynamic historical current, fascism has taken many different forms, and has evolved dramatically in some ways. To understand what fascism has encompassed as a movement and a system of rule, we have to look at its historical context and development--as a form of counter-revolutionary politics that first arose in early twentieth-century Europe in response to rapid social upheaval, the devastation of World War I, and the Bolshevik Revolution. The following paragraphs are intented as an initial, open-ended sketch.
Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. Often, but not always, it promotes racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide. At the same time, fascists may embrace a form of internationalism based on either racial or ideological solidarity across national boundaries. Usually fascism espouses open male supremacy, though sometimes it may also promote female solidarity and new opportunities for women of the privileged nation or race.
Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies--and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.
Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.
Fascism has a complex relationship with established elites and the non-fascist right. It is never a mere puppet of the ruling class, but an autonomous movement with its own social base. In practice, fascism defends capitalism against instability and the left, but also pursues an agenda that sometimes clashes with capitalist interests in significant ways. There has been much cooperation, competition, and interaction between fascism and other sections of the right, producing various hybrid movements and regimes. |
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Sounds very much like the enemies of the US |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Judging from his farewell to the nation speech, President Eisenhauer clearly saw something quite sinsiter on the rise.
BEWARE THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. |
Please see this http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=103382. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As to the claim made in the thread title: Nonsense.
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Since the passage of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, US citizens can now be indefinitely detained with no recourse to judicial review. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006
Bush, Cheney and Co. have now made Congress irrelevant by use of an unprecedented number of "signing statements" appended to acts of Congress that essentially say that they may not abide by the law being signed. Watch http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cheney/view/main.html.
You still want to call it a democracy? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| You still want to call it a democracy? |
Actually, I call it a republic, but that aside, we'll see if Bush cancels the elections next year. If he does, and the military goes along with him and we have a real fascist dictatorship, I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.
If he doesn't, he'll prove that while he is seemingly contemptuous of traditional American values and traditions, he wasn't aiming for dictatorial power.
We'll know the answer in less than 53 weeks. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Want to live in a real FASCIST state, keane?
Try North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Myanmar for starters.
Then report back to us.
Smell the coffee, not the pot. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| You still want to call it a democracy? |
Actually, I call it a republic, but that aside, we'll see if Bush cancels the elections next year. If he does, and the military goes along with him and we have a real fascist dictatorship, I'll be happy to admit I was wrong.
If he doesn't, he'll prove that while he is seemingly contemptuous of traditional American values and traditions, he wasn't aiming for dictatorial power.
We'll know the answer in less than 53 weeks. |
If you think Bush is the one behind all this, you are mistaken. He is just a pawn of the ruling class, more immediately of Dick Cheney. Watch this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cheney/view/main.html.
Until we change the structure from the bottom up, it doesn't really matter who is in power. The idea is to quash any opposition to complete, unfettered rape of the world's resources by the ruling oligarchs, of whom 1% of the world's population controls 95% of its wealth.
(I can't believe Dave's *beeps* out someone's real name!) |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Want to live in a real FASCIST state, keane?
Try North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Myanmar for starters.
Then report back to us. |
Incredibly, I may actually agree with you here. I have lived in Cuba and, as much criticism as I have for the US, let me reassure you that Cuba is NOT the answer. It is already a complete police state while in the US we still have the facade of rights. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: The U.S. IS a fascist State... |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
according to the two following definitions/descriptions. The first is a scholarly definition/description. It was written in 1996, but sounds so much like current conditions it is eerie:
What is Fascism? Some General Ideological Features
| Quote: |
by Matthew N. Lyons
I am skeptical of efforts to produce a "definition" of fascism. As a dynamic historical current, fascism has taken many different forms, and has evolved dramatically in some ways. To understand what fascism has encompassed as a movement and a system of rule, we have to look at its historical context and development--as a form of counter-revolutionary politics that first arose in early twentieth-century Europe in response to rapid social upheaval, the devastation of World War I, and the Bolshevik Revolution. The following paragraphs are intented as an initial, open-ended sketch.
Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. Often, but not always, it promotes racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide. At the same time, fascists may embrace a form of internationalism based on either racial or ideological solidarity across national boundaries. Usually fascism espouses open male supremacy, though sometimes it may also promote female solidarity and new opportunities for women of the privileged nation or race.
Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies--and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.
Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.
Fascism has a complex relationship with established elites and the non-fascist right. It is never a mere puppet of the ruling class, but an autonomous movement with its own social base. In practice, fascism defends capitalism against instability and the left, but also pursues an agenda that sometimes clashes with capitalist interests in significant ways. There has been much cooperation, competition, and interaction between fascism and other sections of the right, producing various hybrid movements and regimes. |
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Sounds very much like the enemies of the US |
What are you talking about? Israel isn't an enemy.
I can see why it sprang to your mind though:
| Quote: |
| racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide |
Hey, they may be fascist, but at least they're not as fascist as the refugees they're shelling, right? |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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What are you talking about? Israel isn't an enemy.
I can see why it sprang to your mind though:
Quote:
racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide
Hey, they may be fascist, but at least they're not as fascist as the refugees they're shelling, right? |
Please redirect all your concerns to Mohammed Deif
and Hassan Nasrallah
Speaking of genocide, Hassan Nassrallah dreams of it. Here is one of his famous quotes:
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| If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. |
Get your facts straight; Isreal wants peace, Hezbollah and Hamas don't. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Want to live in a real FASCIST state, keane?
Try North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Myanmar for starters.
Then report back to us.
Smell the coffee, not the pot. |
Mr. Wonder-if-you'll -ever-respond-to-the-content-of-a-post,
Clue: Whether one place is or is not a fascist State or not has nothing to do with whether the US has become or is becoming a fascist State.
Clue #2: All the parts marked in the OP describe current conditions in the U.S.
I know you don't respond to the substance of information that doesn't conform to your preset world view, but why not give it a shot? Try something new, eh? |
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saw6436
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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When you peel back the layers of BLT's posts you find carefully swaddled by layer after layer of rabidly righteous indignation lies the soul of a facist.
Reading BLT's posts is a bit like watching that old commercial of the gorilla throwing the suitcase around. Amusing to see but I ain't buying that piece of luggage. So, whay shoud anyone buy any of BLT's lunatic musings. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: US is a Fascist State |
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| Disagree, and I'm not American (or Canadian) & don't support either GWB or JWH. There are at least 200 million Americans that disapprove of GWB. To tar & feather all Americans, because of the actions of GWB, D1ck Cheney & Henry Kissinger is just plain ludicrous. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| saw6436 wrote: |
When you peel back the layers of BLT's posts you find carefully swaddled by layer after layer of rabidly righteous indignation lies the soul of a facist.
Reading BLT's posts is a bit like watching that old commercial of the gorilla throwing the suitcase around. Amusing to see but I ain't buying that piece of luggage. So, whay shoud anyone buy any of BLT's lunatic musings. |
And whose sock are you? Gopher's? Steve's? It's fascist to... fight against fascism?
BTW, wanna buy a question mark?
You missin' a bit o' gray matter, friend. See steve and/or gopher for that straw you need for your dolls.
It's sad you are so afraid of the statements in the two articles cited that you cannot address them. Nor can Steve. Ah, but this is nothing new. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: Re: The U.S. IS a fascist State... |
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deadman"][
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| What are you talking about? Israel isn't an enemy. |
??
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| racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide |
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Israel believes in protection for jews not racial superiority.
What genocide are you talking about ?
In deadmans sicko world about 3 miles = imperial expansion.
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| Hey, they may be fascist, but at least they're not as fascist as the refugees they're shelling, right? |
Israel doesn't behave worse than other nations during war time you cult following fascist bigot.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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saw6436
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Waiting for my incoherent PM. Wanna buy sanity? |
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