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excitinghead
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Like I say in that post of mine on my blog that I linked to, I also think that Koreans are fully aware of the problems of their education system, although parents naturally tend to want to go with the flow more and more towards exam time. And I think new teachers are definitely learning very different things to the teachers of 10, even 5 years ago: my work is close to the Pusan University of Education, and so I see all the students getting on and off there with English teaching textbooks. I took note of one of the titles recently, and it turns out that my sister, who has just finished teacher-training in NZ, was using exactly the same book!
There will be generational change in Korean education eventually, but I personally fear that it will be too late for some of the wrenching changes the Korean economy has to go through in the next 5-10 years. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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I just skimmed your first post excitinghead, but I think it's a good point that you made. It aligns with what I said before about change needing to come from the top down. Until the good ol' boy system perishes, I don't see much in the way of intellectual enlightenment on the horizon.
Which reminds me: some students were telling me once that they learned in their social studies class that the reason Korea is still a developing nation rather than a developed one is because they lack 시민 의식, which the best I can figure out means 'enlightenment'. There was a reference by the teacher to post-revolution France. So, it's cool they're talking about it.
As silly as Korea is at times, I see good things to come when I look at the brightest hopefuls among the students.
| Alyallen wrote: |
Q.....
| Quote: |
| I think Americans are by and large uncritical and credulous. That's why we have insane things like putting warning stickers on biology books and debates about marriage being the 'foundation of society' going on. People do not critically examine--they hear something and regurgitate it. |
As tempted as I am to point out how generalized this statement is, I won't bother. |
Well, you did, so there it is. The statement is generalized, but I don't see how that invalidates it. And I did say "by and large", to allow that a fraction of 'seppoes' (as I learned we are called) do think critically.
If you look at polls showing statistics on matters such as evolution vs. creation, it's impossible to configure that the majority of Americans are deep thinkers. I don't say this to fault them, but just to point out that our education system produces lemmings, just like Korea's. I used to be one of them, sadly, until I was forced into learning what 'critical perspective' means, and learning how to apply it. It was a slow, torturous process.
| lucas_p wrote: |
| Qinella wrote: |
| About giving answers vs. guiding, I rarely had teachers guide me. They basically just asked if anyone had the answer and if no one did they gave it to us. |
I pity your educational background then. My best teachers were creative and encouraged free thought and discussion. I had a few that followed the strict "follow me" mold, but not often.
Our background defines us, I guess. I would assume that Juregen also came from a more open and nurturing background. I guess I got lucky too with an awesome family and great teachers. |
So were most of your teachers your best teachers? I'm not sure why you felt the need to overlook what I said just to repeat the same thing inversely, if not. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| pest2 wrote: |
Of course the public school system in Korean isnt as 'evolved'... remember: First world economy, third world social culture. They're still stuck on the ways of the past. Give em time to let the culture catch up with the wealth.... granted that might be after most of us are dead, but....
And of course there are problems with ed in the West. Different ones... and probably the effects of those problems are not as detrimental to the people who go through the western ed system or the jobs they do after graduation as compared to what happens here in korea.
One thing I notice is that most of my coteachers know about the problems and if there's one thing they are willing to admit is problematic about korea, its all these issues people are bringing up in this thread. I suspect is a case of some older, more traditional people at the top not allowing change to occur where it should... But eventually, and thankfully, those guys will retire and/or croak and change will usher in. |
Ah but once you get to the top, or even start to approach the top, you find the system you're working within more and more congenial!
| Qinella wrote: |
I just skimmed your first post excitinghead, but I think it's a good point that you made. It aligns with what I said before about change needing to come from the top down. Until the good ol' boy system perishes, I don't see much in the way of intellectual enlightenment on the horizon.
Which reminds me: some students were telling me once that they learned in their social studies class that the reason Korea is still a developing nation rather than a developed one is because they lack 시민 의식, which the best I can figure out means 'enlightenment'. There was a reference by the teacher to post-revolution France. So, it's cool they're talking about it. |
'Citizen awareness'. It means Korea has not yet evolved a civil society as western European - and American - countries did during the Englightenment. |
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pest2
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| pest2 wrote: |
Of course the public school system in Korean isnt as 'evolved'... remember: First world economy, third world social culture. They're still stuck on the ways of the past. Give em time to let the culture catch up with the wealth.... granted that might be after most of us are dead, but....
And of course there are problems with ed in the West. Different ones... and probably the effects of those problems are not as detrimental to the people who go through the western ed system or the jobs they do after graduation as compared to what happens here in korea.
One thing I notice is that most of my coteachers know about the problems and if there's one thing they are willing to admit is problematic about korea, its all these issues people are bringing up in this thread. I suspect is a case of some older, more traditional people at the top not allowing change to occur where it should... But eventually, and thankfully, those guys will retire and/or croak and change will usher in. |
Ah but once you get to the top, or even start to approach the top, you find the system you're working within more and more congenial! |
Yeah, Im sure they enjoy it alot more than the grunts at the bottom. Too bad those grunts are the ones who actually affect the finished product the most -- namely, the students. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| 'Citizen awareness'. It means Korea has not yet evolved a civil society as western European - and American - countries did during the Englightenment. |
Weeellll I was going for meaningful translation rather than literal translation. Imo, 'citizen awareness' in English means something different. |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| excitinghead wrote: |
Like I say in that post of mine on my blog that I linked to, I also think that Koreans are fully aware of the problems of their education system, although parents naturally tend to want to go with the flow more and more towards exam time. And I think new teachers are definitely learning very different things to the teachers of 10, even 5 years ago: my work is close to the Pusan University of Education, and so I see all the students getting on and off there with English teaching textbooks. I took note of one of the titles recently, and it turns out that my sister, who has just finished teacher-training in NZ, was using exactly the same book!
There will be generational change in Korean education eventually, but I personally fear that it will be too late for some of the wrenching changes the Korean economy has to go through in the next 5-10 years. |
I work at a school that hosts student teachers. Trust me....not much has changed. In fact, I find it even more painful to watch. Crappy Korean Teacher the 2007 model: Even more inept than ever....  But to be fair, this applies more to the general classroom teachers, not so much the few English teachers who darken the doorways of my school.... |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
I just skimmed your first post excitinghead, but I think it's a good point that you made. It aligns with what I said before about change needing to come from the top down. Until the good ol' boy system perishes, I don't see much in the way of intellectual enlightenment on the horizon.
Which reminds me: some students were telling me once that they learned in their social studies class that the reason Korea is still a developing nation rather than a developed one is because they lack 시민 의식, which the best I can figure out means 'enlightenment'. There was a reference by the teacher to post-revolution France. So, it's cool they're talking about it.
As silly as Korea is at times, I see good things to come when I look at the brightest hopefuls among the students.
| Alyallen wrote: |
Q.....
| Quote: |
| I think Americans are by and large uncritical and credulous. That's why we have insane things like putting warning stickers on biology books and debates about marriage being the 'foundation of society' going on. People do not critically examine--they hear something and regurgitate it. |
As tempted as I am to point out how generalized this statement is, I won't bother. |
Well, you did, so there it is. The statement is generalized, but I don't see how that invalidates it. And I did say "by and large", to allow that a fraction of 'seppoes' (as I learned we are called) do think critically.
If you look at polls showing statistics on matters such as evolution vs. creation, it's impossible to configure that the majority of Americans are deep thinkers. I don't say this to fault them, but just to point out that our education system produces lemmings, just like Korea's. I used to be one of them, sadly, until I was forced into learning what 'critical perspective' means, and learning how to apply it. It was a slow, torturous process.
| lucas_p wrote: |
| Qinella wrote: |
| About giving answers vs. guiding, I rarely had teachers guide me. They basically just asked if anyone had the answer and if no one did they gave it to us. |
I pity your educational background then. My best teachers were creative and encouraged free thought and discussion. I had a few that followed the strict "follow me" mold, but not often.
Our background defines us, I guess. I would assume that Juregen also came from a more open and nurturing background. I guess I got lucky too with an awesome family and great teachers. |
So were most of your teachers your best teachers? I'm not sure why you felt the need to overlook what I said just to repeat the same thing inversely, if not. |
So let me get this straight, they poll 1,000 people in the midwest and somehow that applies to 300,000,000 people. Cool....good to know
I wouldn't say the U.S. population is full of deep thinkers but it's shows some lack of thought to think the opposite is true or makes for a good generalization.... |
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whatever
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Location: Korea: More fun than jail.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| and somehow that applies to 300,000,000 people. Cool....good to know |
Yep. It's pitiful how often this logic is applied to this and that on this board (among other places). |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Isn't is amazing? Small sample experience applied as a blanket statement to an entire group/population/culture.
That positively never, ever happens in here...na ha..never... |
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pest2
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Isn't is amazing? Small sample experience applied as a blanket statement to an entire group/population/culture.
That positively never, ever happens in here...na ha..never... |
Its a good thing we -- the many people on this board whose similar subjective experiences purport to something a little more than that once being added together -- have a cop you around to set us straight. Watchout yawl, the apology sheriff's in town! heee haww! |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| 'Citizen awareness'. It means Korea has not yet evolved a civil society as western European - and American - countries did during the Englightenment. |
Weeellll I was going for meaningful translation rather than literal translation. Imo, 'citizen awareness' in English means something different. |
I thought you translated it as 'Enlightenment' which is a whole other thing, a historical period no less.
And 'citizen awareness' is my literal translation, but 'civil society' is my approximation of the meaning. That was meant to be obvious, particularly seeing as 'citizen awareness' is not a common expression with a well-defined meaning, but 'civil society' is. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| So let me get this straight, they poll 1,000 people in the midwest and somehow that applies to 300,000,000 people. Cool....good to know |
That's a response I did not expect.. were you upset or something?
I'm not sure why you think that Gallup only polls 1,000 (too small a sample size) people in the midwest (not random), and why you think that the debate to put warning labels on biology books and teach ID in science class doesn't happen in New England (it has) and the South (of course).
If you go here you can learn why it is that: "According to the aggregated data, 47% of Americans agree that God created humans pretty much in their present form either exactly as the Bible describes it or within the last 10,000 years. That leaves about half of Americans who agree that humans developed or evolved, either with or without God's help in the process." That's just unmitigated ignorance right there. 10,000 years? Or less? Eesh.
Here are their survey methods:
Results are based on telephone interviews with a total of 3,037 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted in February 2001, November 2004, and September 2005. For results based on the total sample, one can say with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is �2 percentage points. In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.
Maybe you don't think 3,037 people are enough to generalize about a population of 300 million, but then I'm assuming you are not a statistics specialist, or even anything remotely close. That's not to insult you, but just to remind you that you can't hand-wave expert opinions with a just because you don't like their data.
So anyway, my point about this was just that Americans are not the critical thinkers some would like to say they are. They just aren't. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm really a gullible moron. I'm just saying there isn't a huge chasm between Korea and the US in terms of this debacle of sleepwalking through life.
| Quote: |
| I wouldn't say the U.S. population is full of deep thinkers but it's shows some lack of thought to think the opposite is true or makes for a good generalization.... |
You're not really making any point at all, I don't think. It seems you had a knee-jerk reaction to a generalization. I made a qualified generalization (as I pointed out before and you ignored, I guess) on purpose to rebut the generalizations that were being made about Korea (particularly by the poster who was pointing to the US as a beacon of critical thought). |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
I thought you translated it as 'Enlightenment' which is a whole other thing, a historical period no less.
And 'citizen awareness' is my literal translation, but 'civil society' is my approximation of the meaning. That was meant to be obvious, particularly seeing as 'citizen awareness' is not a common expression with a well-defined meaning, but 'civil society' is. |
I did translate it as enlightenment because they explained it as the change in social thought in France after the French Revolution, which was of course the same time as the Enlightenment. Then we got out a dictionary and translated Enlightenment back to the Korean and they said that's what they were talking about. But I think 'civil society', springing from the ideals of Enlightenment, is probably more apt, and less obfuscated. Good call. |
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