|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
|
 Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:36 am Post subject: Nature Trumps Science |
 |
|
Volcanic clay found to kill 99 per cent of MRSA superbugs
| Quote: |
From our ANI Correspondent
London, October 29: Dirt that originated in French volcanoes has the potential to kill up to 99 per cent of colonies of bugs like MRSA and E coli within 24 hours, say scientists.
... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nature is science. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Nature is science. |
that isn't true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| loose_ends wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Nature is science. |
that isn't true |
How so? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lots of things kill bacteria in test tubes. Lots of new antibiotics don't get much past the lab stage.
Bacteria and human cells are pretty much the same biologically. Why antibiotics work is they work on some region of the bacteria's cell wall that is unique and allows the antibiotic to denature the bacteria or invade the cell wall. Unfortunately, what will kill a bacteria just as readily kills human cells.
So there's a very, very narrow range of known substances and why we're losing the war.
And science deals with what can be observed in nature. Why, the top scientific journal which publishes papers from every scientific discipline is called "Nature". They didn't just pull that name out of the air. And all (or most) antibiotics come from nature. Antibiotics are just the active chemical.
So iceberg vs Titantic. Storm vs levee. Those might be examples of nature trumping science. But I'm not sure how scientists doing what they've always done, look in nature for natural substances that might be made into antibiotics, is an example of nature trumping science. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mindmetoo wrote: |
Lots of things kill bacteria in test tubes. Lots of new antibiotics don't get much past the lab stage.
Bacteria and human cells are pretty much the same biologically. Why antibiotics work is they work on some region of the bacteria's cell wall that is unique and allows the antibiotic to denature the bacteria or invade the cell wall. Unfortunately, what will kill a bacteria just as readily kills human cells.
So there's a very, very narrow range of known substances and why we're losing the war.
And science deals with what can be observed in nature. Why, the top scientific journal which publishes papers from every scientific discipline is called "Nature". They didn't just pull that name out of the air. And all (or most) antibiotics come from nature. Antibiotics are just the active chemical.
So iceberg vs Titantic. Storm vs levee. Those might be examples of nature trumping science. But I'm not sure how scientists doing what they've always done, look in nature for natural substances that might be made into antibiotics, is an example of nature trumping science. |
while you are right about anitbiotics coming from nature, you forgot that antibiotics are also synthesized in labs.
science, although broadly used to describe many things, specifically refers to the scientific method.
we use the scientific method to investigate nature and synthesize things that we observe to be benificial.
science and nature are not the same thing. science can also be used to observe and investigate things that do not occur in nature. science is simply a method for such investigation.
although, one can always argue that science is a product of nature; human nature. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| loose_ends wrote: |
| while you are right about anitbiotics coming from nature, you forgot that antibiotics are also synthesized in labs. |
No I didn't. I said that right in my post.
"And all (or most) antibiotics come from nature. Antibiotics are just the active chemical. "
Where do you suppose that active chemical comes from to make a pill?
Anyway, we should distinguish between traditional antibiotics, which are microorganisms grown in labs, and chemical compounds that prevent the growth of bacteria. What the OP references is the first kind of antibiotic, being discovered the way all traditional antibiotics are discovered, in nature.
I'm not sure if it's still the case, but it used to be if you worked for a drug company and you went on vacation, especially to an exotic location, you scooped up a bit of soil and brought it back to the company. They'd go through the soil looking for any unknown microorganisms with antibacterial effects.
Lots of drug companies are actually getting out of antibacterial research as lawsuits are making it an increasingly large financial risk.
| Quote: |
| science and nature are not the same thing. science can also be used to observe and investigate things that do not occur in nature. |
Could you give me an example of something that doesn't occur in nature (at some level)? Surely, they create new chemical compounds and even new elements, however these things are still created using the things found in nature. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="mindmetoo"]
| loose_ends wrote: |
Could you give me an example of something that doesn't occur in nature (at some level)? Surely, they create new chemical compounds and even new elements, however these things are still created using the things found in nature. |
lets look at opiates as an example.
opium is natural. heroin is not.
another example is plastics.
of course everything, in one way or another, comes from nature. however nature doesn't naturally produce certain 'synthetic' compounds that humans have created.
can we create new elements though? i haven't heard of that, but i may be ignorant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| loose_ends wrote: |
lets look at opiates as an example.
opium is natural. heroin is not.
another example is plastics.
of course everything, in one way or another, comes from nature. however nature doesn't naturally produce certain 'synthetic' compounds that humans have created. |
By definition synthetic is something that's not made naturally in nature. There's no point in arguing that. The point is, however, science is based in the natural world. It addresses that which exists in the natural world, that which can be measured, not just what is produced by the natural world. The problem is we're arguing a fallacy of equivocation initially introduced by happeningthang. Switching from this definition of nature:
n. 1. The material world and its phenomena. 2. The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
to a more restricted one of "that which is made in nature without human intervention". Are humans part of the material world? Yep. Is what we do a phenomenon? Yep. A human making mustard gas. A bombardier beetle squirting two chemicals together to produce an exothermic reaction. I don't much see a difference.
I believe the OP used "nature" thinking nature provides superior antibiotics compared to those science produces, maybe not appreciating traditional antibiotics are all discovered in nature, and produced by nature. If this news article is accurate (and so few are when it comes to science writing), it would be the first step in identifying a new antibiotic or even a new class of antibiotics. That's all. It has nothing to do with a "nature vs science" story, as in "the iceberg vs the Titanic".
| Quote: |
| c]an we create new elements though? i haven't heard of that, but i may be ignorant. |
Ever hear of a plutonium mine? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| I believe the OP used "nature" thinking nature provides superior antibiotics compared to those science produces, maybe not appreciating traditional antibiotics are all discovered in nature, and produced by nature. |
I believe you are, as usual, speaking of that which you know nothing about. Since you have been told NOT to engage me, please don't, particularly not with stupid assumptions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| loose_ends wrote: |
lets look at opiates as an example.
opium is natural. heroin is not.
another example is plastics.
of course everything, in one way or another, comes from nature. however nature doesn't naturally produce certain 'synthetic' compounds that humans have created. |
By definition synthetic is something that's not made naturally in nature. There's no point in arguing that. The point is, however, science is based in the natural world. It addresses that which exists in the natural world, that which can be measured, not just what is produced by the natural world. The problem is we're arguing a fallacy of equivocation initially introduced by happeningthang. Switching from this definition of nature:
n. 1. The material world and its phenomena. 2. The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
to a more restricted one of "that which is made in nature without human intervention". Are humans part of the material world? Yep. Is what we do a phenomenon? Yep. A human making mustard gas. A bombardier beetle squirting two chemicals together to produce an exothermic reaction. I don't much see a difference.
I believe the OP used "nature" thinking nature provides superior antibiotics compared to those science produces, maybe not appreciating traditional antibiotics are all discovered in nature, and produced by nature. If this news article is accurate (and so few are when it comes to science writing), it would be the first step in identifying a new antibiotic or even a new class of antibiotics. That's all. It has nothing to do with a "nature vs science" story, as in "the iceberg vs the Titanic".
| Quote: |
| c]an we create new elements though? i haven't heard of that, but i may be ignorant. |
Ever hear of a plutonium mine? |
i'm not arguing anything, just having a discussion.
science is of course a method to observe and investigate the things that occur in nature.
however, science can also be applied to investigate human nature. if we include ALL things done by humans to be a part of nature, then yes, science can only investigate nature.
basically it comes down to the question.
what is un-natural? is there anything outside of nature?
one could ague synthetic materials are outside of nature. one could argue that they are an extension of nature, found naturally when humans put 2 and 2 together. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| loose_ends wrote: |
| what is un-natural? is there anything outside of nature? |
If there is anything outside of nature, then it's not part of science. So questions of god, life after death, what was here before the big bang, what is the universe expanding into. I don't think these things are amendable to science unless there is some testable claim. So, science has nothing to say about god. However, if you claim god cured your cancer, that's a testable claim. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| loose_ends wrote: |
| what is un-natural? is there anything outside of nature? |
If there is anything outside of nature, then it's not part of science. So questions of god, life after death, what was here before the big bang, what is the universe expanding into. I don't think these things are amendable to science unless there is some testable claim. So, science has nothing to say about god. However, if you claim god cured your cancer, that's a testable claim. |
sure, i agree.
but, can nature beat science? or in other words, can science fail in quantifying or qualifying nature such that nature works outside of the bounds of known science.
i'm sure there are a lot of examples where this has happened in the past. i think you identified a few in your first posts.
thus, one could be inclined to use the title, 'nature beats science' or something to the effect; basically meaning, science didn't properly qualify or quantify a certain natural event. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="loose_ends"can science fail in quantifying or qualifying nature such that nature works outside of the bounds of known science.[/quote]
Lots of what is in the natural world currently works outside of known science. Astronomy is a great example. There are always some nice theories on Saturn's ring systems or super novas and then a new observation casts it all into doubt.
| Quote: |
| thus, one could be inclined to use the title, 'nature beats science' or something to the effect; basically meaning, science didn't properly qualify or quantify a certain natural event. |
I think anyone researching antibiotics would say up front "there are a lot of undiscovered organisms and substances that have good antibiotic properties, we just have to find them. But it isn't easy and we never know where the next will come from." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lots of things found in nature kill bacteria (citric acid, fire, UV light,...). What's interesting here is that it could be used to produce very cheap topical antibiotics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
