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Hey, photography types: Advice please
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twg



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Hey, photography types: Advice please Reply with quote

Now, I know a lot of you are film-only types, and I'm using a DSLR, but...

Here in this set, I was asked to take some shots of a recent gig our own Harpeau was playing. If you've been to Phillies Bar you know that space is in pretty short supply so I wound up taking hundreds of blurry, off kilter shots in order to get what you see there.

I think a lot of these pics are fine for what they are, but I was wondering if anyone of you experts out there had some advice to make them even better next time around. I've been cranking the ISO to get them in focus, but that leaves me with a lot of noise... which works in some shots... But what I really want is some advice on taking low-light shots in situations where the use of a tripod isn't possible.

And I can provide the EXIF info on some images if you need it.

Thanks.
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indytrucks



Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: The Shelf

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Hey, photography types: Advice please Reply with quote

twg wrote:
But what I really want is some advice on taking low-light shots in situations where the use of a tripod isn't possible.


In a nutshell ... faster lenses or faster film. If you aren't happy with the grain (or 'noise' or whtever you dig people call it) then a faster lens is the usual way to go. What's the widest aperature on your fastest lens?


Last edited by indytrucks on Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Atavistic



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. Faster lens. What's the lowest f/stop you can get with your lens?

Another option when you can't use a tripod is to use a beanbag or photo pod. Google it, you'll see what I mean. I've used beanbags (jackets, rocks, books, my boyfriend's fist) in the past and gotten good results.

Also, a string tripod, which I plan on making for myself, shortly. http://lifehacker.com/software/photography/diy-string-tripod-257008.php
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twg



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All in the lens, eh?

I only have this cheapo lens:

http://photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/ Any suggestions on a better one that wont break the bank? I need something with some versatility.

Quote:
If you aren't happy with the grain (or 'noise' or whtever you dig people call it) then a faster lens is the usual way to go.

I like it in some of the B&W or stage-light saturated shots, but for general street stuff I want something a bit smoother

Quote:
Also, a string tripod,

That's awesome! I was trying to do that with my camera bag towards the end of the evening.

Thanks guys
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indytrucks



Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: The Shelf

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twg wrote:
I only have this cheapo lens:

http://photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/


The kit lens. Please don't take offense to what I'm going to say ... yucky. Kit lenses almost always suck. And the widest aperature is only f/3.5. Not that great.

If you're looking for something faster that won't break the bank and that offers very good image quality, I would say look no further than a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8. I have the 1.4 ... it cost me about 350,000 at a shop in Namdaemun. The 1.8 is cheaper ... I think in the vicinity of 150,000. Now, with a crop factor to consider (I'm guessing your DSLR has one ... maybe 1.3 or 1.6) your 50mm becomes longer, so if you want something more wide angle, you might want to reconsider.

I priced the 24mm f/1.4L over the weekend, my soon-to-be next purchase. Bit expensive, but I'm saving my pennnies.

You can read here for reviews of lenses to give yourself an idea of what you want and what falls within your price range.
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twg



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indytrucks wrote:
If you're looking for something faster that won't break the bank and that offers very good image quality, I would say look no further than a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8.

Practically speaking (Ie: Dummies version plz) what would the differences in shots between these two types of 50mm be?

Quote:
You can read here for reviews of lenses to give yourself an idea of what you want and what falls within your price range.


Bookmarked, thanks.
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RACETRAITOR



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa, I was just in there last night with my wife and she remarked it would be a good place for some kind of event. I told her she was crazy because it was way too small.

I like your black and white photos a lot more than the colour shots. Nothing uglier than pure red lighting, pure blue lighting, or just the two colours mixed.
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Atavistic



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twg wrote:
indytrucks wrote:
If you're looking for something faster that won't break the bank and that offers very good image quality, I would say look no further than a 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.8.

Practically speaking (Ie: Dummies version plz) what would the differences in shots between these two types of 50mm be?


You understand the relationship betwee f/stop, shutter speed, and ISO?

2/3rds a stop. (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm REALLY not used to these funky fake stops like 1.8, 12, 15....)

Either of those would be faster than the 3.5 you're currently using (3.5 being another fake funky stop).
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twg



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atavistic wrote:
You understand the relationship betwee f/stop, shutter speed, and ISO?

Welllllll~ I understand that if I sit there fiddling with all of those settings I can eventually get a shot I want.
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Santiago



Joined: 26 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the ideas that Ansel Adams developed was that there should be 5 stops between the darkest and lightest areas in your photograph. I realize you don' t necessarily have that option but as means of skirting it, you could stop up once or twice.

I like this shot a lot http://www.flickr.com/photos/thewilliamg/1775735822/in/set-72157602738231714/

but his face is burning white hot and it makes the composition look bad. A good way to solve that is with spot metering

http://www.vad1.com/photo/spotmeter.html

if you're camera has settings for it. If your camera meters the whole frame, there's no way to do it unless you have a seperate light meter, called an incident meter

http://www.sekonic.com/products/products.asp?ID=130

But on mine I can set the meter to "spot" which means I can get a reading from the "circle" in the middle of the lens. I meter from the darkest and brightest part of the image to see what the difference is, then make a decision.

What I mean by stopping up once or twice is that if there are 7 or 9 stops between widest and most narrow aperture, I'd go towards the narrow side to prevent burning on the main subject, if that is the brightest as it is in your image above. Your background will end up darker, maybe even just shadow but the subject will look better.

Edit: after reading your latest post, I realize what I've written here is probably more information than you wanted. Oh well, maybe you can find some of it useful.
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Atavistic



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

twg wrote:
Atavistic wrote:
You understand the relationship betwee f/stop, shutter speed, and ISO?

Welllllll~ I understand that if I sit there fiddling with all of those settings I can eventually get a shot I want.


OK. Wow. And you have a DSLR? I strongly suggest you read this website and the subarticles it links to.

http://www.diyphotography.net/exposure

OK. A bunch of what I'm going to say is based on FILM. Unfortunately, in a lot of ways, DSLRs have mucked things up. If your camera shows MORE than these numbers, TRY AND CHANGE THE SETTINGS to show JUST these numbers until you understand them.

ISOs are film speeds.
http://www.diyphotography.net/iso

Learn these ISOs. 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600. There are higher ones (3200, for example) and lower ones (50, for example) but those are the ones you should memorize (because those are the ones you'll use the most, I think).

What you need to know is that each number is TWICE as sensitive to light as the one before it. SO--200 speed film needs HALF as long as 100 speed to get the same amount of light on the film (or sensor) if the f/stop is the same. 400 speed film needs HALF what 200 speed does (a QUARTER of what 100 needs). It works like that. Understand?

Now, your camera may have funky in between numbers. Like 640 or 80 or something. Since you don't seem to have much understanding yet, I strongly suggest you ignore them.

F/stop (aperture) is the hole of light that your camera lets in.
http://www.diyphotography.net/aperture

Here are the key numbers: 1 and 1.4. The whole sequence (and again, you can actually get smaller and bigger, but let's ignore that right now) is double the number before-before it.

1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45, 64, 90, 128. Most lenses stop around 22. See the pattern?

You lens probably has stops in between there, but those are NOT FULL STOPS. The list before is full stop, and I suggest you use only those until you really understand the relationship between f/stop, ISO, shutter.

Each full stop lets in HALF as much light as the stop before it. 1 lets in a LOT of light while 128 is a freakin' pinhole! The SMALLER the number, the MORE light.

If you take three pictures using the same film and the same shutter for each photo, the 1 will take in twice as much light as 1.4, which will take in twice as much light as 2.

Shutter speed.
http://www.diyphotography.net/shutter-speed

Half the one before it. 1 second, 1/2 sec, 1/4th, 1/8th, 1/15th, 1/30th, 1/60th, 1/125, 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000. Note! Most cameras will write only the 500 or 125 and assume you KNOW it's 1/500, 1/125. Again, your camera may have more than that, but while you're learning I strongly suggest you only use those. (Or the settings closest to those.)

Each shutter speed lets in half as much light as the one before it. That's pretty easy to understand. Stare at the sun for 1 second and get twice as much light as if you stare at it for 1/2 second.

Why am I telling you to ignore the other stuff? Cause each of the numbers I just gave you is ONE FULL STOP. If you change ONE of those numbers by only one position while leaving the other two alone, you will let in half or twice as much light.

I'm going to stop now. Anyone please correct this if I got it wrong.

OP, I suggest you take a day this weekend and go practice the sunny 16 rule outside with your camera until you understand the relationship between ISO/fstop/shutter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

http://www.apogeephoto.com/jan2001/sunny16.shtml

http://www.eyescoffee.com/collectcamera/sunny16rule/index.php

You could also just learn how to use your camera meter. However...camera meters can be screwy, they can break, they can be easily fooled or thrown off, and how do you know when to use spot vs center-weighted vs matrix metering? If you learn the Sunny 16 rule, you can do a whole lot of eyeball metering on your own. I personally think learning Sunny 16/ISO/shutter/fstop at together is a good idea.

Another option is to stick your camera on a tripod. Turn the camera to manual mode. Set TWO things. Say, ISO and shutter. Then go through each FULL f/stop and take a picture. Then set ISO and fstop and ONLY change shutter. Then set shutter and fstop and ONLY change ISO. Look at ALL of the pictures afterwards and you should start to understand the relationship.

Another option is to stick your camera on a tripod and set the camera to priority mode. Set it to, say, shutter priority. Set the shutter. Then take the picture. Change the shutter. Take another picture. Compare the ISOs and f/stops of those two pictures. Repeat.

Doing these things should help you understand exposure.

If this sounds bossy or long-winded, eh, sorry. I learned photography on an SLR camera when I was 9. The light meter was busted and my parents couldn't afford a hand held one. I STILL "eyeball" meter nearly every scene because I do it better than my camera and because I like to go fully manual to control depth-of-field, which is something I sure as hell am not going to overwhlem you with. Laughing
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indytrucks



Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: The Shelf

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely off topic, but with the theme of photography ...

For all the film shooters out there (I think one or two might actually still exist) there are two superb pro labs in Chungmuro that stock an impressive range of film, both slides and print, and for most formats (35mm, 120, 220, 8x10) and also stock an impressive range of darkroom stuff. I was there on Saturday and nearly had a heart attack I was that overcome with the selection. Some film types I hadn't seen in years, and at reasonable prices. PM me if you want specific directions.
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The Lemon



Joined: 11 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But what I really want is some advice on taking low-light shots in situations where the use of a tripod isn't possible.


I agree with the sound advice others have offered, but let me add a couple of things I've learned from my cameras, which are far inferior to yours:

1. The blur is caused by one of two things moving while the exposure is being taken: A. the subject or B. the camera/you. The only things you can do about A is take faster shots with higher ISO/faster lenses, or don't zoom in so tightly - wider angle shots won't show the movement as much.

Don't be so afraid of ISO noise. Get to know a decent noise-removal PS plugin like Neat Image. With a D-SLR you should be able to crank the ISO to 800/1600 and still get salvagable images. My sad cameras can't dream of that.

2. Camera movement: No room for a tripod in a darker room like the club? Improvise with something steady (not your gut, as you used in one shot). I look for sides of walls/doors. The top of a beer bottle on a table can work.

Anything is better than your head, or worse, holding the camera out by your arms. Even if the thing you're wedging the camera against isn't going to stop the camera from wiggling left-right, at least it's fixed vertically.

3. Take a crazy number of shots. Out of 25 shots of a subject in poor light, one might happen to be half-decent. The more shots you take, the better your odds. At least with digital, it's free.
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twg



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atavistic wrote:
OK. Wow. And you have a DSLR?

Heh, nerd.

Actually, I'm not that ignorant of how to use the camera. I've never bothered learning the jargon because I'm one of those hands-on/ learn from mistakes sorts and a lot of terms coming at me just makes me go, "Durr... math?"

What you suggested for learning exposure is kind of what I do anyway. This image here, that I'm rather fond of...


Was one out of a few dozen taken with different ISO, F/stop, and shutter settings. Usually what I do is try everything, get them home in photoshop, and see which one came out the nicest... Then crop and resize them because 12- 20 eight meg files take forever to upload.

Fortunately, with this wall, I had the luxury of screwing around with the settings since the wall wasn't in a hurry to go anywhere. At the bar during a gig situation, with a lot of people moving about, I had to find a happy medium and try my best to get something to come out.

Which is why for my original need for advice. The next time the situation comes up, I'll spend less time thumbing dials, and more time pointing.

BUT~

What you wrote there was really useful and I've copied and pasted it. So thanks.

Santiago wrote:
I like this shot a lot http://www.flickr.com/photos/thewilliamg/1775735822/in/set-72157602738231714/

but his face is burning white hot and it makes the composition look bad.


That image



was actually a crop of this image here



Now that I look at them both, I like the original better since there's more weight to the black. They both have the same problem you mentioned, though. I'll try to do what you suggest next time

RACETRAITOR wrote:
I like your black and white photos a lot more than the colour shots. Nothing uglier than pure red lighting, pure blue lighting, or just the two colours mixed.

Honestly? I like the ugliness of the saturated color shots. Then again, I'm fascinated with ugly things, given how many pictures of Seoul I've taken
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Atavistic



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Lemon wrote:

Anything is better than your head, or worse, holding the camera out by your arms. Even if the thing you're wedging the camera against isn't going to stop the camera from wiggling left-right, at least it's fixed vertically.


A few more things....

One thing people with digis tend to do is hold it OUT and use the LCD screen. BAD! With DSLRs you don't have that option (as far as I know...has this changed on any models?) so you MUST look through the viewfinder. This is GOOD! Your FACE helps prevent movement. Don't be afraid of your face (says the woman whose SLRs all have permanent nose prints on them...seriously...).

Having said that, you can hold the camera in front of you to steady it. Put the neck strap on, tuck your elbows into it and hold your arms out as far as you can. Feet APART! This helps steady the camera.

Another thing that sounds odd but is true--squeezing the shutter on your camera can cause camera shake. One option is to set the self timer for something low (1 second, 2 seconds) and use that. I use this setting almost all the time when I'm using a tripod or bean pod or resting it against a weird object. You press, the lens settles, the shot fires.
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