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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks TexasPete and Bramble. As a longterm veggie myself, I'm quite pleased to hear all this. Who wants a notorious genocidal maniac in their ranks, eh?  |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting link. I'm sure some will question the sincerity of his professed religious beliefs, but it's worth noting that he enjoyed the support of the Christian churches of his time. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: Re: English woman killed by her own religious extremism |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
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...Mr Gough was reported to be looking after the couple's twin boy and girl at his home in Telford, Shropshire, following the tragedy at the Royal Hospital in Shrewsbury on October 25. |
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I had no idea Shrewsbury was a real place. All these years of watching Brother Cadfael re-runs, and I thought it was just a fictional town like Ballykissangel. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: Re: English woman killed by her own religious extremism |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
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...Mr Gough was reported to be looking after the couple's twin boy and girl at his home in Telford, Shropshire, following the tragedy at the Royal Hospital in Shrewsbury on October 25. |
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I had no idea Shrewsbury was a real place. All these years of watching Brother Cadfael re-runs, and I thought it was just a fictional town like Ballykissangel. |
Speak about the devil! Just mentioned you today on another thread, and suddenly you turn up out of the blue! How's it going? |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| Interesting link. I'm sure some will question the sincerity of his professed religious beliefs, but it's worth noting that he enjoyed the support of the Christian churches of his time. |
I too would totally question the sincerity of Hitler's religious beliefs. Same with George W Bush. I also agree that Nazism wasn't an especially religious movement. Still, the charge against atheism that Hitler was an atheist, even if we allow that Hitler had no belief in God, is appallingly lazy and if said by a Christian is actually disgusting. Nazism is the culmination, the pinnacle of 2000 years of persecution of the Jews in Europe. Hitler got many of his ideas about Jewish inferiority from German Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther. The latter wrote that in their rejection of Christ, the Jews became the "quintessential other". |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| This is very libertarian. This is what Ron Paul thinks. Shhhhhhhhhhhh .... |
We all know how often the proverbial stopped clock is right. Unfortunately for RP, his clock stopped in the early 19th Century. |
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Flash Ipanema
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The state has no place meddling in areas such as this.
She was of sound mind & quite willing to die rather than transgress one of her fundamentally principled beliefs.
Upward & onward. |
I don't think anyone is arguing that the state should be meddling. I think the issue is that a woman's religious beliefs may have caused her to die an unnecessary death. And yes, it was her right to decide to refuse treatment knowing she might die, but the reason it's so abhorrent is that she did it knowing her two newborn children would be raised without a mother. Honestly, I don't know any mother alive who wouldn't do anything for her children, and being alive for your children is pretty high on the list. |
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The_Eyeball_Kid
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Flash Ipanema wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The state has no place meddling in areas such as this.
She was of sound mind & quite willing to die rather than transgress one of her fundamentally principled beliefs.
Upward & onward. |
I don't think anyone is arguing that the state should be meddling. I think the issue is that a woman's religious beliefs may have caused her to die an unnecessary death. And yes, it was her right to decide to refuse treatment knowing she might die, but the reason it's so abhorrent is that she did it knowing her two newborn children would be raised without a mother. Honestly, I don't know any mother alive who wouldn't do anything for her children, and being alive for your children is pretty high on the list. |
A court in Dublin recently intervened in a very similar case and forced the mother to have a blood transfusion, concluding that refusing a blood transfusion would transgress the unborn baby's right to be raised with a mother in a normal family environment. Good on them.
What's the difference between refusing a blood transfusion and committing suicide? Either one could be based on a misinterpreted verse from the bible. If you saw someone about to throw themselves from a building, you wouldn't for one moment stand by and let them do it, would you? No, you'd intervene on the grounds that the person was 'mentally incompetent' of making any rational decision. Ergo cogito... |
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Don Gately
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Location: In a basement taking a severe beating
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Terrible for the children obviously, but she personally is getting her ass kicked by Darwin and humanity can be relieved such a creature can pollute the genepool no more. |
+1
Darwin Award Nominee |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| How many bus/train passengers did she take with her? |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| As much as you guys criticize religious people for being stupid enough to do that, they could ironically be in heaven laughing at you! |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Eyeball_Kid wrote: |
| Flash Ipanema wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
The state has no place meddling in areas such as this.
She was of sound mind & quite willing to die rather than transgress one of her fundamentally principled beliefs.
Upward & onward. |
I don't think anyone is arguing that the state should be meddling. I think the issue is that a woman's religious beliefs may have caused her to die an unnecessary death. And yes, it was her right to decide to refuse treatment knowing she might die, but the reason it's so abhorrent is that she did it knowing her two newborn children would be raised without a mother. Honestly, I don't know any mother alive who wouldn't do anything for her children, and being alive for your children is pretty high on the list. |
A court in Dublin recently intervened in a very similar case and forced the mother to have a blood transfusion, concluding that refusing a blood transfusion would transgress the unborn baby's right to be raised with a mother in a normal family environment. Good on them.
What's the difference between refusing a blood transfusion and committing suicide? Either one could be based on a misinterpreted verse from the bible. If you saw someone about to throw themselves from a building, you wouldn't for one moment stand by and let them do it, would you? No, you'd intervene on the grounds that the person was 'mentally incompetent' of making any rational decision. Ergo cogito... |
Yet you watch people smoke or eat junk food every day... go figure. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Eyeball_Kid wrote: |
A court in Dublin recently intervened in a very similar case and forced the mother to have a blood transfusion, concluding that refusing a blood transfusion would transgress the unborn baby's right to be raised with a mother in a normal family environment. Good on them. |
That's appalling, if it really happened as you've said. How can you support forced intervention of any kind? Do you think doctors are omniscient? Have "medically indicated" treatments never killed anyone?
That judge must have been on crack. Courts can't force people to raise their children in "normal family environments." If they could, they'd have nearly unlimited power to restrict people's freedom ... they could prevent parents from moving to new cities, control their career and financial decisions, and put them in jail for making bad (or unconventional) choices of all kinds.
| Quote: |
| What's the difference between refusing a blood transfusion and committing suicide? Either one could be based on a misinterpreted verse from the bible. If you saw someone about to throw themselves from a building, you wouldn't for one moment stand by and let them do it, would you? No, you'd intervene on the grounds that the person was 'mentally incompetent' of making any rational decision. Ergo cogito... |
The law has to maintain a distinction between suicide and refusing treatment. There are many situations where people have legitimate objections to medical decisions, and doctors can't be allowed to have the last word. Otherwise, they�d be gods, and no one would ever have the right to question them.
I�m still interested in knowing whether the hospital met all its obligations to provide the woman with the best possible care while still respecting her religious beliefs. Have there been any follow-up articles about this same case?
Oh well, I guess I�m the only one who's curious � |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
I�m still interested in knowing whether the hospital met all its obligations to provide the woman with the best possible care while still respecting her religious beliefs. Have there been any follow-up articles about this same case?
Oh well, I guess I�m the only one who's curious � |
Well, there's not been a follow up story about it in The Guardian thus far. If and when there is, it will most likely be listed here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion. So if you click on there in the coming days, weeks etc - you may come across more information. You could also check other media to see if this story is being followed up elsewhere. There'll be some kind inquiry no doubt, but how long that will take I can not say. |
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