Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Mix1]

I work at a hagwon in a nice area of Seoul. I feel I could be in trouble as it's kind of my "third strike"...but not sure yet. Here's my situation:

Every time I have gotten serious and actually punished a bad student, the parents call the hagwon complaining. Today I did it again, and yup, the parents called to complain. The boss reprimands me and this will be the third time it has happened.

Context: the student I punished has been totally disrespectful for weeks now. He is in elementary school, maybe two years before middle school. He won't be quiet and rarely stays in his seat. When I call his name he once answered "Wae??" in Korean, and often simply answers with "Why??" Once when it was his turn to do his speech he yelled "No!" right at me, so I had him stand at the back of the room for 10 minutes and explained why he was being punished.

Today, he and a friend come into my class while I'm about to start a different class. They are hiding from their Korean teacher. I'm generally friends with them, so it's funny at first, but then I just said, "OK, it's time to go now." The student gets up to go but his friend stays crouched behind a desk. So the student sticks his butt into the kids face and FARTS and walks out of the room!
This is all right in front of me sitting at my desk while correcting papers. The smell is so bad, all the students and I have to leave the room and I start my class late. If it was any other student it might have been one thing, but for this particular student it was the last straw for me. I decide he needs some punishment.

So, I make a sign in Korean with his name on it and write "fart boy" next to it, and the message explains that he cannot come into my classroom TODAY until it is his turn to present his speech. My plan is to embarrass him a little and hopefully teach him a lesson.

So an hour later this students class starts. All the students see the sign and laugh. He tries to tear it down but I don't let him and say "You're lucky we don't call your mom." Now he's angry and sits down at a desk in the back of the room. I tell him no, he must get out of class and stand in the hallway and practice memorizing a speech (he was supposed to do it as homework) until it was his turn to recite the speech. He refused to move out of his desk. I asked four times. I start to grab his bag so I can lead him out but he clutches it harder. I'm not allowed to actually touch the students to punish them, but I'm a bit angry now at his refusal to move and follow directions so I pull his desk with him in it into the hallway.

A Korean teacher and secretary witness the whole thing. The teacher asks me "Why?" I point to the sign on the door, close it and begin class. When it is time for his turn to do his speech, I go outside to get him and he has moved out of his desk onto a bench and won't talk or move at all. He has been crying and is still holding a tissue the secretary gave him. I tell him he must do his speech, but he still won't move. I tell him, "OK, you have a choice, you can do it in class or you can do it here." He puts his paper down and just stares straight ahead. So I say, "OK, fine, go home." (My class was his last class and it was time to go anyway.)

The students mom calls the hagwon to complain about me. Later, I talk to the Korean teacher who saw the incident and she said I was too harsh and too angry with the student. This teacher always sends students out of her class. I ask whats the difference? She says she only does that when they don't do homework, and that I have to find another way to punish them. And I shouldn't show my anger because it's too harsh and she never does shows her anger (this is BS by the way, all the students tell me she is a total witch.)

Anyway, did I really go too far with the punishment? I never touched him or raised my voice. I'm not the perfect teacher, but most kids enjoy my classes and I rarely have any problems. I can't believe I'm supposed to just accept this kind of behavior from a student.

Many of the other K-teachers say I should be actually be more strict and less friendly with the students, but everytime I try to lay down the law or punish them, I get in trouble with the parents. I can't imagine the kid being able to do that to a male Korean teacher, he would likely get a beating.

Am I the crazy one here? Tomorrow I will have to discuss this with my boss and I'm not sure what to say. I know hagwons are a business and in some ways a joke in regards to education, but there's got to be some rules and hierarchy in place. What do you do when a student simply WON'T listen or obey? Any suggestions how to handle this?

[sconner]

I had a student like that. He behaved badly in class and then his mom would call and complain. I started bringing my tape recorder into class and taping the class. I told him I would send the tape home to his parents. It worked on the first day. Now we get along great and he's one of my top students. A lot of the problem was he was in a lower level than he should have been. I hope this helps.

[Mix1]

[KYC]

What crap. I was told the exact same thing that I should be less angry and harsh with the students since they tend to learn better with a "friendly" teacher. Gee, how I can be nice and friendly when they are beating the crap out of each other, throwing things at me, etc??

I dont care honestly. I get very upset and just "lecture" them for a few minutes even though they dont even understand (but their korean teacher does). Then I would send the most disruptive student out.

Yesterday I was so disturbed by one class' negativity. They didnt want to do anything. They didnt want to participate in the lesson at all. It was like pulling teeth to get to repeat, listen, etc. Finally theres 10 mins left of class and I showed them how to play the game. Again they were really negative about it so I told them the game is for them not for me and if they didnt want to play that's fine. I dismissed class 10 mins early and left very angry.

The homeroom teachers made them write apology letters to me but I was told I need to be more friendly...and that I'm too harsh and I shouldnt compare them to my other students at my other school.

I'm sure I will get in trouble for ending class early since the kids totally lied and said I dismissed class 20 minutes early. I'm not really concerned. I'm so unhappy with them..I just feel so bad for my coteacher who is caught in the middle. He's constantly trying to help me out as he knows how unruly they are. If the school does say something to me, I'm afraid I will say something very "unfriendly"

[Lao Wai]

Hey,

I feel for you OP. I remember feeling pretty helpless at times. I worked at two hogwans in Korea. The first had Korean teachers and foreign teachers (ECC). The second had no Korean teachers, just Korean helpers. At my first school, the kids did not respect the foreigners. The students at my first hogwan would behave horribly for us but beautifully for the Korean teachers. We also got the double standard from the Korean teachers. When WE, the foreign teachers, yelled at the students it was too harsh. When the Korean teachers did it, it was appropriate (in their eyes). Oh, and I just loved when I'd send a student out in the hallway and the secretaries would give them CANDY! Way to reward bad behaviour.

Now, at my second hogwan there were no Korean teachers and the students were great. They listened to us because we were the only adult authority figures who had direct power over them. If we had a problem we could send them to the director. Originally, the Korean helpers were in the classroom with us while we taught. But, because they babied the kids so badly we asked for them to be removed. The students' behaviour improved immediately.

At my public school in Hong Kong it was the same thing. The kids didn't really respect me or view me as their 'real' teacher. When I yelled at the kids in English my Chinese co-workers thought it was over the top (meanwhile, I've heard all of them wail like banshees at the kids in Chinese). Again, a double standard. The local teachers were always on the phone to parents. When I would ocassionally ask for a parent to be called I'd get 'how about one more chance, he said he's sorry'. What a crock of shit.

Now, I'm back teaching in Canada (substitute teaching, mind you). And you know what? I get SO MUCH more respect from these kids. They don't even know me but treat me with respect because I'm an adult and an authority figure over them (I'm also fairly likeable, so that helps a lot with high school kids). Elementary kids here (East Coast Canada) are very easy to manage. I have not raised my voice like I did in Asia even ONCE since I've been back.

I think that as a teacher I have pretty good classroom management skills but they seemed to fail me in Asia. I feel that as long as you have the native foreign teacher vs. the native country teacher, the foreigner will always lose. I used to joke that while teaching in Hong Kong I was like Superman but had lost my super powers. Now that I'm home I've gotten them back! It sounds cheesy, but it's true. I feel respected and that I'll be backed up if I need it. The principals and V.P's have said 'if you have any trouble just buzz the office and send them down'. I NEVER heard this from administrators in Asia.

So, to get back to your OP...I don't think it's you. I don't really have any advice except to talk to the Korean teachers a bit more about the issue. When I was teaching in Korea I was 21 and didn't want to 'rock the boat' so I didn't push too hard to get someone to help me out. By the time I taught in HK I was 27 and had a few years experience and qualifications under my belt. So, I didn't feel bad about ignoring the local teachers when they thought I was being harsh. Good luck!

[mrsquirrel]

You started a class late because of a fart?

No excuse mate, none at all.

[Bibbitybop]

[Young FRANKenstein]

[Yu_Bum_suk]

Calling him 'fart boy' was plain immature but you have every right to turf him from your classroom. During my half-year at a hagwon I had a kid like that whom I'd regularly kick out and when the KTs expressed concern after parental phone calls I just told them 'Tell ______'s mother that I think her son is a disgrace and she should be very ashamed of him'. I also said that if his mother wanted to come it I'd *love* to have a few words with her. That turned the tables very quickly. You have nothing to feel sorry for when it comes to expelling rude kids from your classroom.

[Ilsanman]

What is proper discipline varies from school to school.

In my old hagwon in 2005, we were told to give them word tests and post the scores on the door of the classroom. It made a few kids cry. But I was instructed to do it. After 2-3 times, I stopped doing it, or only did it when all of the scores were decent.

Another one, if a kid didn't do homework, he/she had to go out into the hallway wearing a sign around his/her neck that said 'I didn't do my homework.' A few kids were upset by it, but many didn't give a shit.

The fart boy sign wasn't a good idea, but the rest of it was good. I guess this kid is either an angel at home, or his mom just looks past his rude behaviour. You punished her little prince!! How dare you!!

[Mr. BlackCat]

Lao Wai wrote:

[Juregen]

[riley]

My only comment is that calling fartboy was a bad idea. It was understandable, but I always try to leave name calling out of the punishment. They tend to forget why and deal with the name instead.

[PhD]

Your boss either has to stand up for you or he's/she's a jerk.

I told my boss the first time that she pulled that baloney - you are being too harsh - to find someone else and started packing up my desk.

She begged me to stay at which point my response was that I understand this is a business, but my business is to teach the students. So it was her job to tell mommy that her child was screwing around and if he didn't straighten up, she could take him to another hogwan.

I explained to her that ALL the other mommies want their kids to learn and the mommies who don't should be paying some other sap to handle their kids. I kept packing my stuff.

She said that she had to keep the parents happy. I said the way to do that was to have a good end result and allowing bad behavior in a class means the end result is bad for all the students. I kept packing.

She said, immigration would ban me for running away.

I kept packing and said if threats were the way she wanted to attract and keep staff then so be it. (She knew I had the money to leave.)

She then stopped dead and asked me how could we "work this out".

I said, if she wants to talk to the mom and tell her her kid is acting like a brat, then ask her how she would handle the problem. I will "consider" her suggestions.

My boss got on the phone, called the mom, talked a while and hung up. She asked me to wait a couple days before deciding if I was leaving.

The next day, mom and son came to my class and apologized. She handed me a stick. I said, I don't need a stick to make her son behave, I just need her to let him know that I am in charge, and he has to follow the rules. I haven't had trouble with him since.

My boss supports me in managing my students and we discuss it when she thinks I'm being unfair. (That has happened one time and she agreed with me that I was on the money.) I have since been there three years. They want me to stay another year.

[Mix1]