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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
I�m still interested in knowing whether the hospital met all its obligations to provide the woman with the best possible care while still respecting her religious beliefs. Have there been any follow-up articles about this same case?
Oh well, I guess I�m the only one who's curious � |
Well, there's not been a follow up story about it in The Guardian thus far. If and when there is, it will most likely be listed here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion. So if you click on there in the coming days, weeks etc - you may come across more information. You could also check other media to see if this story is being followed up elsewhere. There'll be some kind inquiry no doubt, but how long that will take I can not say. |
Thanks, BB. The original article left a lot of questions unanswered, and it will be interesting to see if they follow up the story in more depth. |
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The_Eyeball_Kid
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| The_Eyeball_Kid wrote: |
A court in Dublin recently intervened in a very similar case and forced the mother to have a blood transfusion, concluding that refusing a blood transfusion would transgress the unborn baby's right to be raised with a mother in a normal family environment. Good on them. |
That's appalling, if it really happened as you've said. How can you support forced intervention of any kind? Do you think doctors are omniscient? Have "medically indicated" treatments never killed anyone?
That judge must have been on crack. Courts can't force people to raise their children in "normal family environments." If they could, they'd have nearly unlimited power to restrict people's freedom ... they could prevent parents from moving to new cities, control their career and financial decisions, and put them in jail for making bad (or unconventional) choices of all kinds.
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| What's the difference between refusing a blood transfusion and committing suicide? Either one could be based on a misinterpreted verse from the bible. If you saw someone about to throw themselves from a building, you wouldn't for one moment stand by and let them do it, would you? No, you'd intervene on the grounds that the person was 'mentally incompetent' of making any rational decision. Ergo cogito... |
The law has to maintain a distinction between suicide and refusing treatment. There are many situations where people have legitimate objections to medical decisions, and doctors can't be allowed to have the last word. Otherwise, they�d be gods, and no one would ever have the right to question them.
I�m still interested in knowing whether the hospital met all its obligations to provide the woman with the best possible care while still respecting her religious beliefs. Have there been any follow-up articles about this same case?
Oh well, I guess I�m the only one who's curious � |
If doctors had the last say on treatment, they'd be gods?! How do you figure? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:47 am Post subject: |
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The Dublin case is a terible example of the excess of staate / court control over the lives of citizzens.
We practice birth canal abortions and thin its a womans right. A woman and her husband want to qietly practice their religion and the state intervenes because the children might be deprived Wat about remarriage for the father. He's young.
In Canada obout 18 years ago it cost a doctor and a hospital nearly 50,000 dollars to learn that lesson. They restained and transfused a JW woman. Assault and nattery. |
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Flash Ipanema
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Please show me WHERE in that article it says the state is trying to intervene? |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Flash Ipanema wrote: |
| Please show me WHERE in that article it says the state is trying to intervene? |
It wasn't in the original article, but The Eyeball Kid brought up a separate case where a mother was (apparently!) forced into a blood transfusion, and suggested that's what should have been done here. A few people responded to that, including me. |
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Tony_Balony
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| Interesting link. I'm sure some will question the sincerity of his professed religious beliefs, but it's worth noting that he enjoyed the support of the Christian churches of his time. |
I too would totally question the sincerity of Hitler's religious beliefs. Same with George W Bush. I also agree that Nazism wasn't an especially religious movement. Still, the charge against atheism that Hitler was an atheist, even if we allow that Hitler had no belief in God, is appallingly lazy and if said by a Christian is actually disgusting. Nazism is the culmination, the pinnacle of 2000 years of persecution of the Jews in Europe. Hitler got many of his ideas about Jewish inferiority from German Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther. The latter wrote that in their rejection of Christ, the Jews became the "quintessential other". |
Hi - I'm sorry I did a search on "Hitler Atheist" and I got about half and half saying he was and saying he was Christian. After reviewing the material I can argue that Hitler was not a Christian and was an Atheist because I found very evidence he regularly went to church on Sunday or any other day of the week. When he did, it was for a political opportunity.
When the BBC writes yet another article stating that Islam is the defacto religion of Europe because church attendance is low, it means no church attendance=no religion. Thus, Hitler was Atheist. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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This is very similar to Bob Marley who refused to have his cancerous toe amputated beacuse of the Rastafarian belief that it is a sin to alter the body from its natural form in anyway whatsoever.
It does happen but, beliefs or no beliefs, it is strange to the 'unenlightened' among us. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony_Balony wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| Interesting link. I'm sure some will question the sincerity of his professed religious beliefs, but it's worth noting that he enjoyed the support of the Christian churches of his time. |
I too would totally question the sincerity of Hitler's religious beliefs. Same with George W Bush. I also agree that Nazism wasn't an especially religious movement. Still, the charge against atheism that Hitler was an atheist, even if we allow that Hitler had no belief in God, is appallingly lazy and if said by a Christian is actually disgusting. Nazism is the culmination, the pinnacle of 2000 years of persecution of the Jews in Europe. Hitler got many of his ideas about Jewish inferiority from German Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther. The latter wrote that in their rejection of Christ, the Jews became the "quintessential other". |
Hi - I'm sorry I did a search on "Hitler Atheist" and I got about half and half saying he was and saying he was Christian. After reviewing the material I can argue that Hitler was not a Christian and was an Atheist because I found very evidence he regularly went to church on Sunday or any other day of the week. When he did, it was for a political opportunity. |
Hitler myths
| Tony Balony wrote: |
| When the BBC writes yet another article stating that Islam is the defacto religion of Europe because church attendance is low, it means no church attendance=no religion. Thus, Hitler was Atheist. |
The conclusion isn't supported by the premise. The reasoning you offer in support of Hitler's atheism is not in fact evidence of Hitler's atheism.
Anyway, as I said, it's of very little importance. Hitler wrote in 'Mein Kampf': "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Sincere in its theistic proclamation or not, it isn't unreasonable to conclude that Nazi anti-semitism was influenced strongly by 2000 years of persecution the Jews suffered in Europe by Christians, totally regardless of Hitler's atheism. Christianity had a lot of responsibility for the Holocaust even though Nazism was chiefly secular. I'm not aware of any evidence that the extermination of at least 6 million Jews, Russians and Poles was motivated by Hitler's lack of subscription to theism.
Hitler and Stalin supposedly being atheists used as an argument against atheism is bogus, childish reasoning. These men did not kill because they were atheists and sought to kill theists. |
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Tony_Balony
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Hitler and Stalin supposedly being atheists used as an argument against atheism is bogus, childish reasoning. These men did not kill because they were atheists and sought to kill theists. |
Childish? Hmm... All these things happened on the secular, atheist watch.
The Turks we high on secularism when the Armenian Genocide occurred. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot where enforcing atheist, secular and anti-religion values at the time all of this went on. We are often told the secularites are enlightened and the religious are fanatical and backwards yet last century's history shows that an unfathomable about of moral sleaze went on under the asserted enlightenment. Innocent? No. |
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