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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: Do we still need feminism? |
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It seems about time for another thread on feminism...
Shackled by the sisterhood?
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Denigrating feminists who came before us should be about as likely as a black South African denigrating the anti-apartheid movement.
My generation, according to the Sunday Times, is "the first generation to be raised free of the shackles of feminism". And we're uninterested in our foremothers who, unglamorously, tied themselves to railings, threw themselves under horses, and, with hairy pits and split ends, banged on and on and on about a woman's need for equality.
We're all post-feminist now. Cute Norwegian popstrel Ida Maria, was drafted in to explain: "I don't care about feminism. I don't care about anything if it looks boring."
Kate Nash, who sings chart-topping songs about mouthwash, explained that "feminism came from Emily [Emmeline] Pankhurst - she had badges with her name on in 1904". Nash is post-feminist because "people will respect you even if you are being unreasonable".
Rapper Estelle is praised for her strident lyrics demanding her menfolk to "wrap it up, 'coz I ain't carrying your embryo". (With chat-up lines like that who needs a can of mace?)
And even the scion of nineties girl power, Ginger Spice girl, Geri Halliwell, rejects the feminist tag these days: "For me feminism is bra-burning lesbianism. It's very unglamorous. I'd like to see it rebranded." Geri 'Ginger' Halliwell has always been a few cocktails short of a girly night out (if you catch my drift), but even she should have the wit to realise the debt she owes to feminism. She's a millionaire single mother, grandstanding about the world flashing brand new corrugated abs, singing tweeny songs about how it's great to be a girl. This is not the sort of thing women were allowed to do pre-feminism.
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And I just love this quote by Birchill:
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As Julie Burchill once said: "There is a short and sharp way to deal with women who say they are not feminists ... If a woman answers 'no' to the question 'Are you a feminist?', she should immediately be stripped of her voting rights, her right to institute divorce, her legal protection from domestic violence and marital rape - oh, and her pay should be cut to 19% less than that of her male colleagues. Then she could lead the carefree, non-ball-breaking life she so desires, and not be forced to take advantage of all those unpleasant and exhausting social gains which those nasty butch feminists in the 20th century forced on her."
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And this will give a few of you an excuse to drown another drink.  |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Why are all the interviewees current popular music stars?
Ask the women who are making less money for the same work as men, those stuck behind glass ceilings and those being regularily abused and even mutilated by men in the name of certain laws against infractions that the men are committing freely if they still need feminism.
I didn't read the article BTW, just your quotation. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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They should interview Koreans on how it is to be free and liberated women in a post-feminist society. See what answers they give.  |
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therooster
Joined: 11 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry , but if anything was ever going to stop men giving women equal rights , it's miserable bra buring feminists.......
Womens rights happened despite feminism...not because of it . |
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topas
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| therooster wrote: |
I'm sorry , but if anything was ever going to stop men giving women equal rights , it's miserable bra buring feminists.......
Womens rights happened despite feminism...not because of it . |
Ok, I'll bite. Please enlighten us. Exactly why did men suddenly and magnanimously decide to let us vote, etc, if not because of feminist campaigning? (And out of pure curiousity, as an aside, do you similarly believe that the civil rights movement had nothing to do with African Americans achieving civil rights?) |
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topas
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Huh, I got so annoyed reading therooster's posts, I forgot what I was going to reply to the OP. Here are my thoughts:
I think there's still a bit of work left to be done in North America, and I would hope that feminists remain a presence. If these last few years have shown us anything, it's that rights and liberties can be taken away more easily than we'd like to believe possible. I also think that there are a lot of communities (no I don't just mean ethnic enclaves) that are very regressive in their treatment of women, and I really hope that the feminists who are visible in these communities remain active in order to remind others that they have options in life. I hate that women are still expected to pull a second shift when they get home from work, while their "partners" pat themselves on the back for washing the dishes once in a while. I also hate that women put up with it--if you want equal division of labour, don't settle for less.
I also really like that many academic and pop feminists are turning their attention to gender issues that don't ONLY deal with women. Gender Studies is increasingly replacing Women's Studies on campus. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to believe, many feminists are interested in more than just how men have wronged us over the years. The ways in which genders are created and performed, by both men and women, are of big interest right now, and not just to me.
Finally, I think the most important feminist work being done right now is not in North America and Europe, but everywhere else. And yeah this might be simplistic and they might disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, these women are feminists if they're fighting for women's rights. That's still what a feminist is to me, no matter the specifics, geography, or race. And definitely no matter the feelings of ungrateful pop-stars trotted out for Sunday Times "studies," or those of ignorant trolls on Dave's. |
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therooster
Joined: 11 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, I'll bite. Please enlighten us. Exactly why did men suddenly and magnanimously decide to let us vote, etc, if not because of feminist campaigning? (And out of pure curiousity, as an aside, do you similarly believe that the civil rights movement had nothing to do with African Americans achieving civil rights?) |
No . You enlighten me . Do you think any of the freedoms women enjoy today could not was been squashed in a split second if men wanted to ? Do you think for one moment it was not the general will of Western men to give women equal rights , and that it was rather enforced upon men unwillingly by some bra burners ?
It all seems like you are trying to portray western men as OPPOSED to the liberty of women and the ideas of equality...rather than the very people that thought up these ideas , championed them and implemented them .....western men and his brilliant enlightened philosophies and intellectual discourse , reduced by your versions to be nothing more than oppresive savages who were shown the light by a handful of mouthy women ???
My eyes are rolling so fast my face looks like a slot machine!!
wow...what a kick in the teeth....don't worry....we never asked for any thanks... |
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therooster
Joined: 11 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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hate that women are still expected to pull a second shift when they get home from work, while their "partners" pat themselves on the back for washing the dishes once in a while. I also hate that women put up with it--if you want equal division of labour, don't settle for less.
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holy crap ...are you sane ????
Name one man....one single man you know who EXPECTS women to have to work two shifts !!! And even if you can do that...please show me how this is evidence that men in any significant number feel the same...what a crock of Sh!te ...
pat on the back for doing a few dishes ? what century are you living in ? I'd never expect any women to wash the dishes/cook the food/iron the clothes purely based on the fact she is a woman...nor do i know anyone who thinks like this....honestly...where do you live ? 1950's america where the men had all come back from a hard days work , not to mention a hard 5 years killing each other to protect you !!!
again....don't bother with the thanks....we know any form of social etiquette and decency and appreciation are not the types of things a women need ever show a man....that would be asking far too much... |
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curlygirl
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Pundang, Seohyeon dong
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| therooster wrote: |
holy crap ...are you sane ????
Name one man....one single man you know who EXPECTS women to have to work two shifts !!!
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I agree that you'd be hard pressed to find a single man that EXPECTS this, but I continue to see men that simply allow their partners to do more.
Her: I'm fed up doing so much of the housework. Will you chip in please?
Him: Why so stressed over a bit of dirt? Why do you need to vacuum/wash/dust/wipe so often anyway.
My point being that the men I know have repeatedly cited 'different standards of cleanliness' as the reason that they do less i.e. "It doesn't look dirty to me so I see no reason to clean it".
If he holds his ground long enough the woman will cave in and do the work. Who cares if she grumbles - he's taking it easy sitting on the couch and a few tongue lashings every now and again is a small price to pay for the easy life.
There's a big difference between expecting the woman to do more and allowing her to do more. |
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therooster
Joined: 11 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that you'd be hard pressed to find a single man that EXPECTS this, but I continue to see men that simply allow their partners to do more.
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Yes...just like those terrible oppresive women who allow their men to work overtime and work late....how dare they allow their man to make choices !! oppresive women scum !!!
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er: I'm fed up doing so much of the housework. Will you chip in please?
Him: Why so stressed over a bit of dirt? Why do you need to vacuum/wash/dust/wipe so often anyway.
My point being that the men I know have repeatedly cited 'different standards of cleanliness' as the reason that they do less i.e. "It doesn't look dirty to me so I see no reason to clean it".
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So it's all about your standards huh ? Oppresing him with your standards are you ?
Chipping in is his attempt at compromise....where is yours ?
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If he holds his ground long enough the woman will cave in and do the work. Who cares if she grumbles - he's taking it easy sitting on the couch and a few tongue lashings every now and again is a small price to pay for the easy life.
There's a big difference between expecting the woman to do more and allowing her to do more. |
I see . From now on I will take more responsibility for my womans actions . I will let her know what she is and isn't allowed to do ....because I'd hate to be oppresive .
I know your tone of your post wasn't nasty or anything...but carry on with this drivel and i'm going to have to start calling you an idiot...
(by the way you describe a relationship like ones you'd see on a bad tv sitcom....lazy couch potato no good man and the women he's so lucky to have found....do you forumlate all your ideas from the comedic ramblings of scriptwriters , or do you have real world experience to go on ?....oh and you're talking about things like preference as if someone not getting yours all the time is evidence of prejudice) |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Those hos need to get back in the kitchen and start making babies |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesus was the first feminist. |
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curlygirl
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Pundang, Seohyeon dong
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| therooster wrote: |
Chipping in is his attempt at compromise....where is yours ?
(by the way you describe a relationship like ones you'd see on a bad tv sitcom....lazy couch potato no good man and the women he's so lucky to have found....do you forumlate all your ideas from the comedic ramblings of scriptwriters , or do you have real world experience to go on |
My attempt at compromise is to lower my standards of house cleanliness so the place isn't pristine, but at least it's not a sty.
And yes I'm talking about my own experience.
Thanks for the comments. |
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therooster
Joined: 11 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus was the first feminist.
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is this the one that goes .. Jesus , a rational feminist and satna clause walk into a bar...?
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My attempt at compromise is to lower my standards of house cleanliness so the place isn't pristine, but at least it's not a sty.
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Sounds pretty fair to me . Or put in some hours and get a maid .I'm sure we can all really get along fine , so why bother with feminism ??.....it's not like you have to deal with clitoridectamy or anything... |
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curlygirl
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Pundang, Seohyeon dong
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you on the idea of getting a maid. I used to suggest this to my 'then' partner, but he wasn't earning enough to cover it.
Clitoridectomy - OUCH! |
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