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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Yah, well why should anyone care about that kinda stuff?
Just keep that great bleed & greed-investment machine rolling!  |
That's right. Because China was a lot better off under the purism of Mao's proletarian principles.
Let's call this whole development thing off. There are some undesirable aspects to it. Tell the peasants to get back to the fields. Machines and development are for the greedy and ungodly. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| That's right. Because China was a lot better off under the purism of Mao's proletarian principles. |
It is an either/or? Only two possible situations for the Chinese to live under? Why? To even protest, or speak of honestly, the massive crimes against the Chinese people by the gang of thugs in charge is to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Right.
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| Let's call this whole development thing off. |
Because they are developing, ergo, the state necessarily must kill religious minorities and sell their organs to party loyalists and gangsters?
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| There are some undesirable aspects to it. |
"Undesirable"? Understatement of the year, captain obvious.
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| Tell the peasants to get back to the fields. |
End widespread organ harvesting from a religious minority = peasants back to their fields?
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| Machines and development are for the greedy and ungodly. |
No, but naive Westerners who spit on the crimes against humanity are. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
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| That's right. Because China was a lot better off under the purism of Mao's proletarian principles. |
It is an either/or? Only two possible situations for the Chinese to live under? Why? To even protest, or speak of honestly, the massive crimes against the Chinese people by the gang of thugs in charge is to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Right. |
You're the one who wants to throw the baby out with the bath-water. It'd kill you to admit that, yes, raising the standard of living of a billion people is the primary priority.
You can't have an educated populous without the economy to support that education. And you cannot have a democratic nation without and educated populous. But you want to curse those of us who try to look to the future for progess! I have not stated, not once, that I think the Chinese regime should be able to oppress Chinese. I'm just saying, that if one has to choose between engagement and isolation, engagement is a whole lot better for the Chinese people. The more the Chinese are engaged by the West, the more their appetite for freedom will grow.
And if you had been to China, you might have gleaned this from conversations with actual Chinese. But dude, you're just another pontificating propagandized conspiracist *beep*.
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| No, but naive Westerners who spit on the crimes against humanity are. |
Show me where I've spit on any crimes of humanity, you self-righteous jackass! You are the exemplar of the naive Westerner. Black and white doesn't come close to your worldview. You're goddamned color-blind.
你是太无知的老外 |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
There are some undesirable aspects to it.
"Undesirable"? Understatement of the year, captain obvious. |
These types of discussions always bring to mind this quote from Orwell...
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Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, "I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so." Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:
"While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement."
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Not to slate Kuros into the same category as Orwell's professor, as I think there is a case to be made for engaging, as opposed to confronting, oppressive regimes that are otherwise elevating the standards of living within their jurisdictions. I guess it's a question of striking the right balance.
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The more the Chinese are engaged by the West, the more their appetite for freedom will grow.
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I agree. But, when the time comes that the economy has been sufficiently developed and the populace sufficiently educated, where do you believe the impetus for the next step, toward democracy, is going to come from? Do you think that the Chinese leaders are just going to say "well, we've got the money and the brains for a democracy now, guess it's time to put our mandate to the popular will". Or do you think that there will have to be some impetus from a source external to the leadership, either from the citizenry, from foreign powers, or...? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| It is an either/or? |
I don't think so, but in your post you clearly created one. Don't shoot the messenger (of your message).
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| You're the one who wants to throw the baby out with the bath-water. |
I do? When did I say that?
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| It'd kill you to admit that, yes, raising the standard of living of a billion people is the primary priority. |
It is "a" priority but not "the" priority.
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I have not stated, not once, that I think the Chinese regime should be able to oppress Chinese. I'm just saying, that if one has to choose between engagement and isolation, engagement is a whole lot better for the Chinese people. |
Again, you've constructed a false either/or. It is possible to both engage, which is a no-brainier, while at the same time being critical.
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| The more the Chinese are engaged by the West, the more their appetite for freedom will grow. |
That may be, that may not be. Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong offer both arguments for and against this. Ultimately, I think you are probably mostly right.
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| And if you had been to China, |
Ah! The argument of authority! I love it. Did Nietzsche or the Greeks teach you how to do that?
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| you might have gleaned this from conversations with actual Chinese. |
(as opposed to fake Chinese?)
Well, I've been to China (twice). And Hong Kong. And Taiwan. And I live in Singapore. I've had a few conversations. The desire for freedom is about as strong as the feeling of ethnic grievance and victimhood.
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| But dude, you're just another pontificating propagandized conspiracist *beep*. |
Again with the names. Pontificating, perhaps. Propagandized, no. That would be you. In so far as I'm "conspiracist", well, kindly list the conspiracies that I offer support to.
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| Show me where I've spit on any crimes of humanity, |
Kuros said:
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| There are some undesirable aspects to it. |
Killing people to harvest their organs being merely "undesirable" is, in my mind, spiting on crimes against humanity.
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| you self-righteous jackass! |
Well, coming from you..
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| You are the exemplar of the naive Westerner. |
As in, you buy the official "Growth for the sake of growth, regardless of all other concerns" propaganda from the CCP, and I offer an article that criticizes the way humans are treated there, and I'm naive?
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Black and white doesn't come close to your worldview. You're goddamned color-blind.
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As in, I see shades of gray? Nah. I look at an issue, for example, China. I see a great decrease in poverty, and a fairly constant amount of human suffering. I offer criticism of the suffering and am "goddamed colour-blind"? Been drinking tonight, cowboy?
Shall I respond in Singlish? Kanchong spider greasy ang mo. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
And if you had been to China,
Ah! The argument of authority! I love it. Did Nietzsche or the Greeks teach you how to do that?
Quote:
you might have gleaned this from conversations with actual Chinese.
(as opposed to fake Chinese?)
Well, I've been to China (twice). And Hong Kong. And Taiwan. And I live in Singapore. I've had a few conversations. The desire for freedom is about as strong as the feeling of ethnic grievance and victimhood[/color] |
Yeah, you can pretty much prove anything you want by citing "actual" citizens of a country, depending on which citizens you choose to talk to. Living in Gwangju, I could cite the opinion of "actual Koreans" as evidence that Park Chung Hee did nothing at all for Korea besides torture and murder his opponents. I'd imagine that someone living in Daegu could prove the exact opposite about Park, citing the same sort of opinion sample. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| On a totally unrelated topic, I think the greatest sign of the society that China will ultimately build is in the massive Chinese diaspora in the West that has near perfectly assimilated, peacefully, into the democratic and capitalist system. San Fran, Vancouver, Seattle, Los Angeles all have huge Chinese populations. Most every small town in NA has at least one Chinese family (for reasons of history). I think the Chinese will be just fine. But the CCP has got to go. Killing your people to save your people is neither rational nor sustainable. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
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| It'd kill you to admit that, yes, raising the standard of living of a billion people is the primary priority. |
It is "a" priority but not "the" priority.
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I have not stated, not once, that I think the Chinese regime should be able to oppress Chinese. I'm just saying, that if one has to choose between engagement and isolation, engagement is a whole lot better for the Chinese people. |
Again, you've constructed a false either/or. It is possible to both engage, which is a no-brainier, while at the same time being critical. |
Oh, sure. But you're going to post offensive, whack-job cartoons directly associating the Olympics with CCP oppression.
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| And if you had been to China, |
Ah! The argument of authority! I love it. Did Nietzsche or the Greeks teach you how to do that? |
Har.
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| Quote: |
| you might have gleaned this from conversations with actual Chinese. |
(as opposed to fake Chinese?)
Well, I've been to China (twice). And Hong Kong. And Taiwan. And I live in Singapore. I've had a few conversations. The desire for freedom is about as strong as the feeling of ethnic grievance and victimhood. |
Go to Beijing and tell them you'd like to shut down the Olympics to punish the CCP. Not everything is about the Chinese gov't, dude.
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| Show me where I've spit on any crimes of humanity, |
Kuros said:
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| There are some undesirable aspects to it. |
Killing people to harvest their organs being merely "undesirable" is, in my mind, spiting on crimes against humanity. |
Well, I don't believe that the CCP is harvesting organs. So, yeah, I'm spitting on what I believe to be Falun Gong propaganda. Even if it is happening, who is doing it? I very much doubt that there is a top-down policy leading from Hu Jintao telling Chinese to harvest-organs. My bet is that its local, corrupt provincial officials at work.
So, I can assure you I wasn't referring to harvesting organs as being 'undesirable,' since I'm skeptical its happening, and even should it be happening, I'm skeptical its widespread.
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| You are the exemplar of the naive Westerner. |
As in, you buy the official "Growth for the sake of growth, regardless of all other concerns" propaganda from the CCP, and I offer an article that criticizes the way humans are treated there, and I'm naive? |
Well, first of all I'm suspect of EVERYTHING Falun Gong says, just as I'm suspect of pretty much EVERYTHING the CCP says. You lapped that article up pretty quickly. I'd have to see the documentary first.
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Black and white doesn't come close to your worldview. You're goddamned color-blind.
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As in, I see shades of gray? Nah. I look at an issue, for example, China. I see a great decrease in poverty, and a fairly constant amount of human suffering. I offer criticism of the suffering and am "goddamed colour-blind"? Been drinking tonight, cowboy? |
If I had been drinking, I probably wouldn't have lashed out. Its what I've not been doing that's been frustrating me.
I'm just tired of this Western jerk-off 'Let's boycott the Beijing Olympics' rigamarole. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
These types of discussions always bring to mind this quote from Orwell...
| Quote: |
Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, "I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so." Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:
"While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement."
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Not to slate Kuros into the same category as Orwell's professor, as I think there is a case to be made for engaging, as opposed to confronting, oppressive regimes that are otherwise elevating the standards of living within their jurisdictions. I guess it's a question of striking the right balance. |
I think Orwell is the most over-rated writer of the early 20th Century. Too me, his participation with the Communists in the Spanish Civil War sullies him at least as much as association with the Nazis sullied Heidigger. Sometimes I read him and think, "that makes some sense," but Orwell never transcended clever polemicism, and 1984 is well-written but uncompelling.
Now, I've not defended Tienanmen Square remotely. I'm defending the idea that Beijing should get its Olympics.
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| OTOH wrote: |
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The more the Chinese are engaged by the West, the more their appetite for freedom will grow.
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I agree. But, when the time comes that the economy has been sufficiently developed and the populace sufficiently educated, where do you believe the impetus for the next step, toward democracy, is going to come from? Do you think that the Chinese leaders are just going to say "well, we've got the money and the brains for a democracy now, guess it's time to put our mandate to the popular will". Or do you think that there will have to be some impetus from a source external to the leadership, either from the citizenry, from foreign powers, or...? |
As for overthrowing the CCP, I challenge the peel to show me a bottom-up revolt that's happened in China that hasn't flipped back into a brutal totalitarianism. This is what I meant by talking to actual Chinese: how do Chinese perceive Revolution? Not very favorably. Again, Westerners expect Chinese to act according to Western values/mores. For better or for worse, the Chinese cannot and will not do so. Politics is above all, the art of the possible. Saying the CCP is oppressive is the easy part. The hard part is finding a way around that.
[And the peel may object that overthrow is not what he's advocating. In which case, how the hell has anything I've said been apologetics?]
My point is that violence option is out the window. Any leader that comes to power by violence will subvert the revolution and set back any gains China has made.
Right now, the CCP is disdained by most urban Chinese. The generation gap between urbanites in their 20s and those in their 40s and 50s who grew up during the Cultural Revolution is very stark. The problem is that Beijing and Shanghai are worlds away from the backcountry. And most of China is still living almost entirely in the 16th Century.
I can't say how things will change, but I expect that another Tienanmen will come one day. And when it comes, it will be impossible to crack down on it. Events like the Olympics, and acts such as opening up China, make it harder for the world to not witness CCP brutality.
I mean, at a certain point we have to have faith in the Chinese people. For years, America was criticized by the rest of the Western World for its treatment of African-Americans. These sorts of problems take time and struggle, and just as the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement defined a generation of Americans, so will Chinese stand up for their democracy.
And until the Chinese stand up for democracy, nobody can 'give' it to them anyway. |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The CBC is a high quality news media information organziation. If it were not for the CBC, Canada would be overrun by Fox news. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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The olympics are very much a celebration of human rights oppression. Not only in the PRC itself but in North Korea, Myanmar, Africa. Anywhere where Chinese influence directly aids oppressive regimes in oppressing their people. Particpation in the games will be a nod to beijing that bankrolling killers like Kim or the Burmese junta, the psychotics in Sudan is fine, and dandy.
Genocide Olympics 2008. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Oh, sure. But you're going to post offensive, whack-job cartoons directly associating the Olympics with CCP oppression. |
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| And if you had been to China, |
I find these two quotes contrasted interesting. The cartoon was drawn by a Chinese citizen and published on the FEER blog. Maybe the Chinese citizen hasn't been to China?
http://www.feer.com/tales/?p=874 |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Oh, sure. But you're going to post offensive, whack-job cartoons directly associating the Olympics with CCP oppression. |
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| And if you had been to China, |
I find these two quotes contrasted interesting. The cartoon was drawn by a Chinese citizen and published on the FEER blog. Maybe the Chinese citizen hasn't been to China?
http://www.feer.com/tales/?p=874 |
I know, because you're a quote-miner. Anyway, I see you're free-falling right into OTOH's fallacy as well. Welcome.
Anyway, the Beijing Olympics shouldn't be stopped because of the thoughts of some silly 老外 |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Who said they should be stopped?
At one time I was planning on attending, but am going to personally boycott them. But I don't think anybody on this thread made a reference to them being "stopped". In fact, I think it will be, on balance, a good thing that they are being hosted in China. The activists will have a month long platform from which to spread the world about what is really happening in China. This is a good thing.
Who cares anyhow. The OP was about the Chinese government pressuring the Canadian public broadcasting service into changing content to make it more favorable to CCP party line. As a Canadian, I find this to be a much bigger issue than the non-issue of China hosting the games. |
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