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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: Spanish king tells Hugo Chavez to shut up |
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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071110/hugo_chavez_071110/20071110?hub=TopStories
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The king of Spain told Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to "shut up" Saturday during a heated exchange at a summit of leaders from Latin America, Spain and Portugal.
Chavez, who called President Bush the "devil" on the floor of the United Nations last year, triggered the exchange by repeatedly referring to former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar as a "fascist."
Aznar, a conservative who was an ally of Bush as prime minister, "is a fascist," Chavez said in a speech at the Ibero-American summit in Santiago, Chile. "Fascists are not human. A snake is more human."
Spain's current socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, responded during his own allotted time by urging Chavez to be more diplomatic in his words and respect other leaders despite political differences.
"Former President Aznar was democratically elected by the Spanish people and was a legitimate representative of the Spanish people," he said, eliciting applause from the gathered heads of state.
Chavez repeatedly tried to interrupt, but his microphone was off.
Spanish King Juan Carlos, seated next to Zapatero, angrily turned to Chavez and said, "Why don't you shut up?"
The Venezuelan leader did not immediately respond, but later used time ceded to him by his close ally Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega to answer Zapatero's speech.
"I do not offend by telling the truth," he said. "The Venezuelan government reserves the right to respond to any aggression, anywhere, in any space and in any manner." |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish king tells Hugo Chavez to shut up |
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| mithridates wrote: |
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071110/hugo_chavez_071110/20071110?hub=TopStories
| Quote: |
The king of Spain told Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to "shut up" Saturday during a heated exchange at a summit of leaders from Latin America, Spain and Portugal.
Chavez, who called President Bush the "devil" on the floor of the United Nations last year, triggered the exchange by repeatedly referring to former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar as a "fascist."
Aznar, a conservative who was an ally of Bush as prime minister, "is a fascist," Chavez said in a speech at the Ibero-American summit in Santiago, Chile. "Fascists are not human. A snake is more human."
Spain's current socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, responded during his own allotted time by urging Chavez to be more diplomatic in his words and respect other leaders despite political differences.
"Former President Aznar was democratically elected by the Spanish people and was a legitimate representative of the Spanish people," he said, eliciting applause from the gathered heads of state.
Chavez repeatedly tried to interrupt, but his microphone was off.
Spanish King Juan Carlos, seated next to Zapatero, angrily turned to Chavez and said, "Why don't you shut up?"
The Venezuelan leader did not immediately respond, but later used time ceded to him by his close ally Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega to answer Zapatero's speech.
"I do not offend by telling the truth," he said. "The Venezuelan government reserves the right to respond to any aggression, anywhere, in any space and in any manner." |
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Frankly, I applaud the king of Spain. Chavez is kind of a bully in the name of fighting for justice. He is very much a neanderthal, megalomaniac, and he is extremely power hungry. He keeps wanting to say something and to be heard around the world. It is very annoying.
I like the Spanish king. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Chavez is kind of a bully in the name of fighting for justice...He keeps wanting to say something and to be heard around the world. |
Pretty much describes everyone to the left of William J. Clinton... |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish king tells Hugo Chavez to shut up |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071110/hugo_chavez_071110/20071110?hub=TopStories
| Quote: |
The king of Spain told Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to "shut up" Saturday during a heated exchange at a summit of leaders from Latin America, Spain and Portugal.
Chavez, who called President Bush the "devil" on the floor of the United Nations last year, triggered the exchange by repeatedly referring to former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar as a "fascist."
Aznar, a conservative who was an ally of Bush as prime minister, "is a fascist," Chavez said in a speech at the Ibero-American summit in Santiago, Chile. "Fascists are not human. A snake is more human."
Spain's current socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, responded during his own allotted time by urging Chavez to be more diplomatic in his words and respect other leaders despite political differences.
"Former President Aznar was democratically elected by the Spanish people and was a legitimate representative of the Spanish people," he said, eliciting applause from the gathered heads of state.
Chavez repeatedly tried to interrupt, but his microphone was off.
Spanish King Juan Carlos, seated next to Zapatero, angrily turned to Chavez and said, "Why don't you shut up?"
The Venezuelan leader did not immediately respond, but later used time ceded to him by his close ally Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega to answer Zapatero's speech.
"I do not offend by telling the truth," he said. "The Venezuelan government reserves the right to respond to any aggression, anywhere, in any space and in any manner." |
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Frankly, I applaud the king of Spain. Chavez is kind of a bully in the name of fighting for justice. He is very much a neanderthal, megalomaniac, and he is extremely power hungry. He keeps wanting to say something and to be heard around the world. It is very annoying.
I like the Spanish king. |
Me too. I wonder what it would be like to be one of the few people in the whole world to be told to shut the *beep* up by no less than a king. Any half-sane person would give their life some serious reflection after that. |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Too bad kings cant do beheadings anymore. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| That man is a lunatic. He always seems to be comparing people to demons and devils. However, I think he's serious about it. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Chavez is kind of a bully in the name of fighting for justice...He keeps wanting to say something and to be heard around the world. |
Pretty much describes everyone to the left of William J. Clinton... |
"Why don't you shut up?" |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Twiggy: I served with the Spanish King. I know the Spanish King. The Spanish King is a friend of mine. You are no Spanish King, Twiggy. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I've been to the Palacio Real, does that mean anything?
I wonder how many people are from the house of Bourbon on this forum, I'd imagine quite a few. They'll all come out of the woodwork soon enough. |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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isn't it about time a "new world" indigenous person told the king of spain a thing or two?
venezuela has power as long as it has oil.
spain has her history books. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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The insinuation being that Venezuela is more powerful than Spain? I doubt it, but don't know how to qualify/quantify the evidence.
Also, having oil doesn't necessarily mean power. Look at Nigeria or Angola. I think in 15 years Venezuela will reflect them more than it will Alberta or Norway. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Why don't you all shut up! Just shut up! Shut the heck up! I was just kidding. I just had to get that out of my system. I think Chavez deserved it. The Spanish prime minister who is on the Left, himself, was trying to be very gracious, very polite, and Chavez was acting like a bully, so the king decided to defend Spanish honour. Good for Don Juan Carlos Rey de Espana. Viva el rey..... Chavez does some nice things for the poor in his country, but he keeps changing the constitution, is violating human rights etc.. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: |
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I seem to remember some very "intelligent" poster(s) saying on another thread (couldn't find it, so am posting this here) that Chavez was killing his economy while referencing him causing oil production to crash. At the time I remember thinking that didn't seem right given how dependent he is on oil to what he's doing (whether for good or ill). All the more so since I am very well versed in Peak Oil and the issues surrounding it. It just didn't make sense unless he's an arrogant idiot AND fool. He may well be, but he just doesn't seem stupid, whatever else people may want to call him.
Stumbled across this today, and can't find a flaw in the piece. I'll leave it to you to gentlemen who give a damn what he's doing down there. I am not one of them, so have at it. (I'm not vouching for the article, btw, just posting it. It is hard to criticize, however.)
Tina Rosenberg goes to school on Venezuela's oil, and flunks
OR
Venezuelan oil production collapsing! Well, not so fast...
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An interesting dichotomy has developed with respect to Venezuela. With a highly popular president and a booming economy the place has become, at least for the moment, downright boring. On the other hand, some in the international media seem to think that Venezuela�s economy is near collapse, its president virtually a dictator, its society is facing social convulsion, and its people can�t find enough food to eat.
Fortunately for Venezuela there really isn�t much more to this dichotomy than some pretty poor reporting. Case in point is �The perils of Petrocracy� in today�s New Times.
...Unfortunately even though the article is mainly about the Venezuelan oil industry it doesn�t even prove very informative about that as the author, Tina Rosenberg, clearly failed to do her homework... ...she doesn�t even know enough to ask the right questions or bring up key facts which might cast doubt on their assertions.
For starters there is this complete misunderstanding of what the dispute over the oil industry is really all about:
...That debate, the REAL debate regarding oil policy, has been going on in Venezuela for 40 years now. Before Chavez came to office those who just wanted to grow PDVSA had power. They were notorious OPEC quota busters (Venezuela was producing 700,000 barrels per day over its quota when Chavez came to office). Their quota busting policies helped push oil prices steadily lower in the 1990s and in turn sent Venezuela�s economy into a tailspin.
So unaware of this is Ms. Rosenberg is she never once mentions either OPEC quotas or the effect that the level of Venezuelan oil production might have on prices. Prices are presumably set only by outside forces that Venezuela has no control over at all... the most fundamental tenet of the anti-Chavez former managers of Venezuela� oil
...Chavez himself of course knew all about those debates and was a firm believer in working with OPEC to restrict production, boost prices, and maximize oil revenues, NOT production. Upon coming to office in 1999 he immediately cut Venezuelan output sharply to conform with OPEC quotas and in the process almost tripled oil prices and greatly increased Venezuela�s oil revenues. The old guard PDVSA management never accepted this and almost immediately set about trying to overthrow his government.
...she clearly swallows the erroneous assertion that Venezuela was a well run oil producing machine before Chavez and is now much less efficient...
In reality, before Chavez PDVSA was highly corrupt and it was that corruption which led them to want to maximize production.
..when PDVSA embarked on a course of ignoring OPEC increasing production, profits be damned, it was led by Andres Sosa Pietri... in a bout of honesty, notes that his family owned the Constructora Nacional de Valvulas (the National Valve Fabricator) which made all the pumps and valves used by PDVSA as it expanded production. This is a stunning conflict of interest... the country might make less money but all the new PDVSA investment would, and did, make his family wealthy.
Later the company was run by Luis Giusti. He believed in ignoring OPEC and maximizing production just as much as Sosa Pietri did. He... was no less self-serving in his policies than was Sosa Pietri. During his tenure most of PDVSA�s finance and administrative functions were spun off into a private for profit company called Intesa which Mr. Giusti had direct financial interests. Of course, the bigger PDVSA became the more profits there would be for Intesa and for Mr. Giusti himself...
So this morass of insider dealing and corruption is what we are supposed to believe was a �sleek machine� and an �excellent exploiter of oil�?
...The Orinoco Belt oil production, which was ramped up to 600,000 barrels of oil per day was the other half of this �brilliant� decision. Yet it only appears brilliant to Rosenberg because she completely ignores the issue of OPEC quotas. If there were no quotas and if Venezuelan output had no effect on prices then maybe having this additional oil revenue would make sense.
However, Venezuela does have an OPEC quota which limits what it can produce. For that reason this Orinoco oil, which is expensive to produce and fetches a lower price on world markets making its profit margin much lower then other Venezuelan oils, displaces other oil. That is, if Venezuela�s quota is 3 million barrels and the Orinoco oil is 600,000 then they have to cut back their other, more profitable production, back to 2.4 million barrels...
Rosenberg then veers into talking about how �PDVSA� is in trouble�. ...the mystery of the missing drilling rigs�. Venezuelan oil production is falling, she claims, because Venezuela supposedly does not have enough drilling rigs to drill for oil and maintain production which naturally declines as old wells run dry.
...The text on this chart says that the current number of rigs is insufficient to maintain a production level of 3 million barrels of oil per day. Yet the numbers in the graph itself show that claim to be false. Looking at it we see that the current number of drilling rigs is equal to or greater than any time except the period between 1995 and 1998... With around 80 rigs Venezuela managed to keep production levels of around 3 MBPD from 1999 to 2002 so why should that number of rigs all of the sudden be inadequate?...
she then quotes one analyst as saying PDVSA production has been going down for the past couple of years � presumably because of mismanagement and missing oil rigs! Of course, that Venezuela might have intentionally reduced its production to meet cuts in its OPEC quotas over the past two years completely is completely beyond her. Yet that is precisely what happened....
Ms. Rosenberg obviously did not read any of PDVSA�s financial statements.
It should be noted that all of PDVSA�s financial statements, both the ones posted on the SEC web site and the ones now referenced on PDVSA�s own web-site are audited by an outside auditing firm which is an affiliate of KPMG. In fact, here is a copy of one with only �basic figures�:
...On page one the AUDITED financial statement clearly points out that Venezuelan oil production last year was 3.25 million barrels per day. So it is not just PDVSA �claming� this, its audited financial statements say that is what it is.
...From the financial statement we see that Venezuela got approximately $53 billion in revenue from exporting oil and oil products. Using the knowledge that Venezuelan oil averaged $55 per barrel last year and that there are 365 days in the year we can see that Venezuela had to be exporting approximately 2,600,000 barrels per day. Add in the 650,000 that even Rosenberg acknowledges is consumed domestically and we, very mysteriously, arrive at Venezuela producing 3,250,000 barrels of oil per day. |
There's more, if you're of a mind. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Chavez is kind of a bully in the name of fighting for justice...He keeps wanting to say something and to be heard around the world. |
Pretty much describes everyone to the left of William J. Clinton... |
It's so much easier to post without thinking eh? |
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