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| Who were the First? |
| The Sex Pistols |
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31% |
[ 9 ] |
| Johny Thunders and the Heartbreakers |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
| The New York Dolls |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
| Iggy Pop and the Stooges |
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27% |
[ 8 ] |
| The Ramones |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 29 |
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Message |
Fishead soup
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Location: Korea
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 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
I don't think you can chalk it all up to the Mod movement. The Mod sense of what it means to be stylish was clearly a huge influence on British punk, but the whole Rocker/Greaser thing was too. Mods weren't really known for the black leather bomber jacket look.
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You really have to look at it more on the social level. Sure punks look more like rockers than mods, but consider the history of the two countercultures.
-The mod movement basically gave out in the mid '60s, and a large number of mods became skinheads. A lot of the earliest punks were old enough to remember 1969 and quite a few even had older brothers who had been skinheads. Punk brought back a mod revival with bands like the Jam, a ska revival with bands like Madness and the Specials, and a skinhead revival which included not only bands like Madness and Bad Manners but also a newer sound like Caulk Sparrer and the Business.
-The rocker movement didn't die out or change the same way mods did. When punk first came out, a large number of the old rockers were still around, still doing the same thing. They saw the punks as a great new rival they hadn't had since the mods, and would often jump these young punks half their age. Joe Strummer showed up at a punk show once dressed as a rocker, and the police kicked him out because they thought he was there to start a fight with the punks. |
The Mod subculture eventially mutated into Scooter boys. Although they drove Vespa's. They dressed more like Skinheads and lots of them sported Flatops. A lot of them also listened to Phychobilly a mixture of Punk and Rock a billy. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The Sex Pistols. Yes, they were influenced by some of the others on the list but without them we wouldn't be discussing "punk" in 2007. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fishead soup wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
I don't think you can chalk it all up to the Mod movement. The Mod sense of what it means to be stylish was clearly a huge influence on British punk, but the whole Rocker/Greaser thing was too. Mods weren't really known for the black leather bomber jacket look.
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You really have to look at it more on the social level. Sure punks look more like rockers than mods, but consider the history of the two countercultures.
-The mod movement basically gave out in the mid '60s, and a large number of mods became skinheads. A lot of the earliest punks were old enough to remember 1969 and quite a few even had older brothers who had been skinheads. Punk brought back a mod revival with bands like the Jam, a ska revival with bands like Madness and the Specials, and a skinhead revival which included not only bands like Madness and Bad Manners but also a newer sound like Caulk Sparrer and the Business.
-The rocker movement didn't die out or change the same way mods did. When punk first came out, a large number of the old rockers were still around, still doing the same thing. They saw the punks as a great new rival they hadn't had since the mods, and would often jump these young punks half their age. Joe Strummer showed up at a punk show once dressed as a rocker, and the police kicked him out because they thought he was there to start a fight with the punks. |
The Mod subculture eventially mutated into Scooter boys. Although they drove Vespa's. They dressed more like Skinheads and lots of them sported Flatops. A lot of them also listened to Phychobilly a mixture of Punk and Rock a billy. |
The mods went a lot of ways. Some became skinheads, some became hippies, some became soul boys, and so on. |
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topas
Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
Did you read the first line? The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges are "Garage Bands." If you're going to play the genre game follow it's rules, everyone has their place. You can say that garage rock led to punk, but in the genre of punk the first "punk band" is the Dolls. If you want to play the "proto-punk" game the the Stooges and Dolls tie.
You don't know anything about the Dolls if you think they were glam. The point wasn't to look like a pretty girl, but to look like a pissed off ugly dude dressed like a chick. Sid Vicious spent his whole "career" trying to be Johnny Thunders, just like Thunders was trying to be Keith Richards. Someone always came before. |
Ok, there is no definitive list of what bands belong to what genres. I've seen the Dolls categorized as punk, proto-punk, glam, and garage, themselves. Similarly, I've seem the Stooges categorized as garage, rock, proto-punk and punk (or dtt. punk). These categories are pretty fluid. So if the question is why do you consider the dolls to be the first, I think your answer of "because they were first" is a bit of a cop-out. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think they were all just rock bands that wore outlandish fashion and performed in a different context but basically revolved around the exact same concept: sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Of course, who am I to knock categorical representations of the same basic musical style and throw off this fine discussion? Hmm...is it because I imagine 300 years down the road that if they are even mentioned, they will all just be considered rock?
I remember Iggy Pop guest hosting a show on MTV wen MTV was actually MTV and featured music. He kept saying "Well, now we're going to play some more alternative or whatever you call it....though it's all just rock" |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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There comes a point when these labels get pretty useless. We can't exactly call every non-conformist band or musician a punk. It's gotten out of control with the emo label, where these kids start calling anything with emotion to it "emo." That doesn't make Frank Sinatra emo, just because some of his songs are sad.
What I would call the punk movement can be traced directly back to other movements in the UK and the US, but there has to be some kind of linear connection. That's why I'm comfortable likening the Who to punk but not Frank Zappa. |
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Dexter Sword
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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The OP forgot to add Vivienne Westwood as one of the choices. The punk movement, well those that actually remember it, forgets that 'punk' was a tabloid label for what was basically a combination of an aesthetic movement and the mastery, love him or hate him, of malcolm mclaren. It was the tabloids that created the label 'punk', no band ever did that - so you can name all the irrevenrant bands you want right back to the fifties, there was no band to actually called themselves 'punk' until the sex pistols as malcolm and vivienne were the only ones who recognized the mood of the times and together they created an aesthetic that eventually became labeled 'punk' by The Sun. You had bands afterwards of course but we are missing the point if we are trying to label a true original punk band because there wasn't one, except the sex pistols who were a pop parody of everything around them including the stooges and the new york dolls who were the irreverant bands of the day.
Labels are useless yeah - and in this case the label was created by a bunch of tabloid morons, what Gary fucking Bushell eventually became, looking for a way to sensationalize the irreverant youth culture of the day. That youth culture took on the label - rather liked it in fact - and people started acting as though it was real. Silly really, how thing happen. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| If you want to see silly, nothing beats clockwork punk, which basically comes right from A Clockwork Orange and is now a real subgenre of punk with its own bands and style. |
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newton kabiddles
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| i saw the ramones and iggy pop..the sex pistols were the first "punk" band |
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stevie rotten
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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how come green day isn't an option!!!????
just kidding,
i'd say the stooges but some of the 60's northwest trashy garage stuff that preceded them could be considered punk. |
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falco
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Odd the the OP hasnt included in his poll the obvious choice for first punk band.....the MC5.
By any definition they were what is now defined as 'punk' -
i). Deafeningly loud guitar.
ii). Anti-establishment.
iii). Minimalist 'style' (ie. songs rarely more than 3 or 4 chords).
iv). Radical politics espoused in song lyrics.
v). Dumped by record labels for contraversy (years before the Sex Pistols made such events fashionable).
- falco. |
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chicagorick
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: 1060 W. Addison
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Chuck Berry was punk before punk was punk. |
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PimpofKorea
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Dealing in high quality imported English
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Herb Alpert and the tijuana brass were the 1st punk band...end of story...they used to rock out with their beeps out. |
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chicagorick
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: 1060 W. Addison
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Dexter Sword wrote: |
The OP forgot to add Vivienne Westwood as one of the choices. The punk movement, well those that actually remember it, forgets that 'punk' was a tabloid label for what was basically a combination of an aesthetic movement and the mastery, love him or hate him, of malcolm mclaren. It was the tabloids that created the label 'punk', no band ever did that - so you can name all the irrevenrant bands you want right back to the fifties, there was no band to actually called themselves 'punk' until the sex pistols as malcolm and vivienne were the only ones who recognized the mood of the times and together they created an aesthetic that eventually became labeled 'punk' by The Sun. You had bands afterwards of course but we are missing the point if we are trying to label a true original punk band because there wasn't one, except the sex pistols who were a pop parody of everything around them including the stooges and the new york dolls who were the irreverant bands of the day.
Labels are useless yeah - and in this case the label was created by a bunch of tabloid morons, what Gary *beep* Bushell eventually became, looking for a way to sensationalize the irreverant youth culture of the day. That youth culture took on the label - rather liked it in fact - and people started acting as though it was real. Silly really, how thing happen. |
F*** McLaren, F*** Westwood.
Without Johnny Rotten, Steve Jones, Glen Matlock and Paul Cook they didn't have sh i te. They were just taking the "punk" look and selling it back to the kids who invented it, much like the designers in the 1990's selling $300 fake flannel shirts to the "grunge" crowd. Marketing.......
And the Pistols NEVER called themselves "punk", Johnny for one is very outspoken about this! |
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