Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Rteacher]

If there really is an advanced alien race living down there, then I figure they know a lot more about us than we do about them...

How about all the other military personnel - including many officers and some astronauts - who have described UFOs and close encounters? Are they all working on science fiction novels?

Anyway, Byrd's diary (if it's really his) states that he didn't want it disclosed till after he passed away - maybe he wanted a Pulitzer Prize awarded post-humously...??

(Must be mind-blowing for those who feel their science and logic are so superior, eh... )

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

I think that it's significant that so many military officers were sources of sightings, and some of the descriptions were elaborate and strongly suggest that the crafts were operated by intelligent extraterrestials.

As far as "capturing specimens" goes, I think that illustrates a prevalent mentality among modern scientists that is ethically challenged.

Unless it's a matter of self-defense (or some other necessity) I don't think that humans can assume the right to just capture, dissect, and kill practically every other species - even those that may be more advanced than us ...

Here's one account of what astronauts have reportedly witnessed
(I'm excluding more dubious reports made on the same website...):

Rumors have persisted for years that the astronauts � nearly all of whom are military officers susceptible to being silenced under orders � may have seen something more on the Moon than rocks and dust.

According to transcripts of the technical debriefing following the Apollo 11 mission, astronauts Armstrong, Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin and Michael Collins told of an encounter with a large cylindrical UFO even before reaching the Moon, U.S. investigative journalist and researcher Jim Marrs documents. Mr. Aldrin further officially presented his encounters with apparent Extraterrestrials on CNN's Larry King Show.

Jim Marrs further presents that Mr. Aldrin said, "The first unusual thing that we saw I guess was one day out or pretty close to the Moon. It had a sizable dimension to it". Aldrin said the Apollo crew at first thought the object was the Saturn 4 booster rocket (S-IVB); but, he added, "We called the ground and were told the S-IVB was 6,000 miles away."

Mr. Aldrin described the UFO as a cylinder, while Armstrong said it was "really two rings. Two connected rings". Collins also said it appeared to be a hollow, tumbling cylinder. He added, "It was a hollow cylinder. But then you could change the focus on the sextant and it would be replaced by this open-book shape. It was really weird."

Even more strange was the experience of Mr. Aldrin and Mr. Armstrong, after they reached the Moon.

According to an Associated Press story of July 20, 1969 published in the San Bernardino Sun-Telegram, the astronauts sighted eerie lights inside a crater near the point on the Moon where their lunar lander was due to touch down the next day.

On their first sweep around the Moon, Armstrong described a mysterious bright light on the inner wall of the crater Aristarchus, located north of their flight path. "It seems to have a slight amount of florescence to it. The area in the crater is quite bright," he reported.

"That area is definitely brighter than anything else I can see. There doesn't appear to be any color involved in it. It looks like an eerie sight," confirmed Aldrin.

Two astronauts who appear to have broken ranks are Dr. Edgar Mitchell and Gordon Cooper. On The Oprah Winfrey Show on 19 July 1991, Mitchell hinted that all information regarding UFOs has not been released, saying, "I do believe that there is a lot more known about extraterrestrial investigation than is available to the public right now [and] has been for a long time� It's a long, long story. It goes back to World War II when all of that happened, and is highly classified stuff."

On Dateline NBC in 1996, Mitchell was even more candid. "I have no firsthand experience, but I have had the opportunity to meet with people from three countries who in the course of their official duties claim to have had personal firsthand encounter experiences� with Extraterrestrials," he said. Jim Marrs says that "Mitchell flatly stated that some advanced military craft use technology derived from alien spacecraft that have been collected by the U.S. Government."

Cooper, in a letter read during a 1978 meeting at the United Nations to discuss UFOs, stated, "�I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet form other planets, which are obviously a little more advanced than we are here on Earth."

Also that year, Mr. Cooper wrote a letter to the ambassador of the Mission of Grenada to the United Nations supporting a UN initiative to study UFOs. In his letter, Cooper stated that astronauts "are very reluctant even to discuss UFOs due to the great numbers of people who have indiscriminately sold fake stories and forged documents, abusing their names and reputations without hesitation. Those few astronauts who have continued to participate in the UFO field have had to do so very cautiously. There are several of us who do believe in UFOs and who have had occasion to see a UFO on the ground, or from an airplane."

Cooper's mention of a "UFO on the ground. apparently was a reference to his own experience at Edwards Air Force Base on May 2, 1957. In 1993, Cooper gave this account of the incident: "I had a crew that was filming an installation of a precision landing system we were installing out on the dry lake bed, and they were there with stills and movies, and filmed the whole installation and they came running in to tell me that this UFO, a little saucer, had come down right over them, put down three gear, and landed about 50 yards from them, and as they proceeded to go on over to get a closer shot of it, it lifted up, put the gear in, and disappeared in a rapid rate of speed.

"And so I had to follow my directions as a military� I had to look up the regulations on who I was to call to report this, which I did, and they ordered me to immediately have the film developed, put it in a pouch, and send them by the commanding general's plane to Washington, which I did. And that was the last I've ever heard of the film."

It is interesting to note indicates Mr. Marrs that, "despite the continued protests that there is no government secrecy regarding UFOs, there is no public report on this incident. Although the event was listed in the Project Blue Book index, a full report and clear photos are suspiciously absent."

Yet Mr. Cooper, who reported the UFO landing, was selected as a Mercury astronaut only two years later. In a 1996 interview, Mr. Cooper said he discounts any conventional explanation for his experience. Asked his thoughts on UFOs, the astronaut said, "Well, I figured it was somebody coming from some distant place to visit us."

Note that Neil Armstrong's description of a bright flourescent light coming from a crater was similar to Admiral Byrd's observation in his log ...

[igotthisguitar]

Hey, thanks for the info RTeacher

[Rteacher]

I can't figure out how to copy the link on this motel computer, and it's a long one, but here goes: http://www.ufocus.wikidot.com/news:u-s-astronauts-reveal-encounters-with-apparent-extraterrestrials-and-ufos

The only UFO book I ever bought was written by a godbrother of mine, Richard L. Thompson, and it comprehensively overviews the entire field of ufology and relates it with ancient accounts.
http://alienidentities.com/ai_ie4.html

(I made the mistake of giving my personally autographed copy to my brother, whose wife sold it at a garage sale ...)

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

Basically nothing that I posted was debunked in the links you provided.

I have already admitted that the UFO field is rife with all manner of fakes and flakes (and probably disinformation sponsored by intelligence agencies...)

Many amateur UFO enthusiasts also tend to get overexcited by sensational reports and pass them on within critically examining them.

However, I know that there are some sincere UFO experts who are actually sober, competent, and intelligent.

In regard to the debunking on the "bad astronomy" link, even one of the regular skeptics on that site criticised the sloppiness of the so-called debunking:

Durian Polseron 03 Aug 2006 at 7:46 pm

The program said that the object seen by the A-11 astronauts was similar to �this object, filmed on a later mission�. (Which mission?) Said object (call it X) looked nothing like a SLA panel, which is a long trapezoid, 1/4 of a tapering cylinder. (You can see them clearly in the Apollo 13 movie, which shows the docking maneuvers beautifully.) The X object shown looked cylindrical or perhaps hexagonal with one pointed and one flat end. It seemed to be in two sections with a dark disk or plate, much wider than the cylinder, between the sections. (I say this from memory, I didn�t tape the show.) It was spinning on its long axis. SLA panels look completely different.

I see this kind of thing a lot in answer to UFO observations: since it can�t be a UFO, it has to be something mundane, so pick some mundane object, even if it�s completely wrong for the observation. Sloppy, very sloppy. Debunkers have no business being sloppy, it only muddies the waters more.

The X footage might have shown the little moon satellite launched from the service module on a later mission (I don�t recall its name). Can someone produce its name and image? And a still or two of the X object from the documentary for comparison?

You said that Aldrin has said elsewhere that the show took his comments out of context. Please provide a link to that conversation, and I mean a link specific to this documentary (he�s been misquoted in big and small ways for decades).

Speaking as a skeptic, our job is to provide convincing evidence and logical arguments to substantiate our beliefs. Sneering at people for their beliefs (even silly beliefs) is counterproductive, and rude. Smug rudeness on the part of skeptics hurts the cause of logic every bit as much as sloppy thinking. People believe in ridiculous stuff for many reasons, but largely because they haven�t heard careful arguments based on solid evidence to push the ridiculous stuff aside. The subject of UFO�s is never going to go away, and neither will our responsibility to carefully -and generously- explain. People are not stupid, and should not be brushed off as fools. Doing so in the name of science will only turn them off science.

For the record, astronaut Gordon Cooper has testified that he saw a UFO while flying as a pilot in WWII (although interviews with those in his squadron didn�t produce any corelating testamony). He clearly thought he saw an exotic machine, not a supernatural event: it�s a mistake to think that belief in UFO�s is always and solely a belief in the supernatural.

I believe that science and logic and be fruitfully applied to any field, no matter how seemingly ridiculous. Just because lots of people make a silly mess of their interest in the idea of extraterrestrial life doesn�t mean the subject can�t be treated intelligently. Look at astronomy: lots of amateur astronomers botch their observations, but that doesn�t mean that amateurs cannot do first-rate work; the best ones can and do.

Saying that extraterrestrial spacecraft cannot exist is as much an act of faith (not logical belief) as saying that they do: the evidence on such things as life in space is so rudimentary and incomplete that nothing is yet proven either way.

You need to do a much more careful job on this subject. Thanks.


And Buzz Aldrin complains about being quoted out of context after clearly saying this much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI

On another skeptic site, the chief NASA spokesperson says that the best evidence for their not being extraterrestial spacecraft is the lack of good photos or videos taken of them (compared with videos of comets and meteors - which obviously are much easier to capture on film...)

The fairly recent Florida video seems to be of good quality to me (and many of the people who commented on it ...):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FeAK-q5Cok&feature=related

[mindmetoo]

[whatever]

This thread is stupit.

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

Now it seems I'm arguing with Beavis and Butthead!

You probably didn't even watch the Florida video - it's taken by a down-to-earth couple with a good camera with a nice zoom lens - and they added a tripod at about the seven minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FeAK-q5Cok&feature=related

This one is interesting, and it's based on actual news reports and 911 calls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuCGIhnru8A

If Apollo astronauts had in fact seen solid proof of aliens, how do you think the U.S. government would have actually gone about informing the public - after "debriefing" the astronauts? ...

One of "mindmetoo's" debunkers was careful to note that no astronauts have claimed to have seen what they considered to be UFOs of extraterrestial origin while on official NASA missions, but conceded that some may have encountered some prior to or after their work for NASA.

Here's an excerpt from a magazine interview with Gordon Cooper back in 1980 that clarifies his position and gives some insider perspective on the overall issue:

Excerpt of interview with Gordon Cooper: OMNI, March 1980, p. 106


OMNI: What about the repeated allegations that the astronauts saw many UFOs?

COOPER: It got so bad that there were deliberately falsified tapes of communications with the astronauts, where UFO material was simply edited in. To my knowledge, the only astronaut on any of the Mercury, Gemini, or Apollo missions who ever saw anything that might have been a UFO was Jim McDivitt, but he didn't get enough pictures to prove anything substantial. That's the only case, in spite of all the stories you hear.

OMNI: Didn't you go after some UFOs as an air force pilot in Germany in the 1950s?

COOPER: Yes, several days in a row we sighted groups of metallic, saucer-shaped vehicles at great altitudes over the base, and we tried to get close to them, but they were able to change direction faster than our fighters. I do believe UFOs exist and that the truly unexplained ones are from some other technologically advanced civilization. From my association with aircraft and spacecraft, I think I have a pretty good idea of what everyone on this planet has and their performance capabilities, and I'm sure some of the UFOs at least are not from anywhere on Earth.

OMNI: Aren't you concerned about the reaction of people who may read this?

COOPER: I've always been honest about my views on this subject. Because the astronauts have been so badly misquoted by irresponsible journalists, it's up to each of us to say what he believes in. I'm engaged in a lawsuit against people who used my name for a commercial venture, quoting me to the effect that I'm dedicated to forcing the government to tell the truth about UFOs. I never said that at all. If any UFO information is being suppressed, it's certainly not in the U.S. Air Force, because I was at a high enough level to know about it.

In defense of the military attitude, I can't really blame them for being negative when I consider ridiculous things that have been said and written and the fact that the military is responsible for national security. It's a little embarrassing to acknowledge they can't explain some things.

OMNI: ...Are people psychologically ready to face it if UFOs should prove to be manned by visiting aliens?

COOPER: People want to know what's going on in the world around them, and I think they're prepared for the truth, whatever it is. A lot of people don't believe anything about UFOs because of the absurd treatises that have come out on the subject. And a lot of people are afraid of the unknown. But the more we know, the greater the likelihood of treating UFOs in a friendly fashion.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc526.htm

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

The video gets clearer after they turn the auto-focus off (and later add the tripod.) It's shape/color-changing behavior, sudden quick movements in different directions, and (at one point) "figure-eight" flight patterns pretty much rules out its being a parachute or weather balloon. It disappears after a helicopter appears. The location is Tallahassee, Florida.

Here's a longer, unedited version (24 minutes with time/date info) that begins with home video of the family's young kids, and includes their annoying comments as the UFO is spotted and they begin to film it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5216692651930678577&sourceid=zeitgeist

Of course, there could be more sophisticated explanations (eg: sky holograms projected to confuse military foes...)

This one is the shorter, higher resolution version linked to before:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6764150767988135047

[mindmetoo]

[mindmetoo]