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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| But, my argument still stands that, if I know all of the pronuciation rules of Hangul, I can pronounce any written Korean word correctly. |
Actually, your argument doesn't stand. While it might be more closely linked to the actual sound, it isn't true across the board and will become progressively less true with time.
The reasons why English words aren't always pronounced the way they're spelled has a number of reasons, but one of the big ones is just different accents. With this in mind, for someone from 충청도 a ㅆ might as well be ㅅ because they don't differentiate.
As languages change there are also sound changes. Many younger people nowadays don't say ~거든 although that's the way it's spelled in books -- they say ~거덩. ~고 is also often pronounced ~구 by younger people with a Seoul accent.
Because language is a dynamic and changing entity any attempt at spelling words according to the way they sound would require regular changes in spelling. Additionally, every accent would have its own unique spelling. Because Korean spellings weren't really standardized until relatively recently, and because the Seoul accent is by far the most common, it probably, at the moment, seems that Korean spellings make sense; however, exceptions like those I pointed out above will become more and more common. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| If old Caesar spoke latin to you, you wouldn't know what the hell he was talking about. |
Neither can I understand a drunken scottsman, but what's that got to do with anything? |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| 네/내 are not pronounced the same in Korean. Also, 한아/하나 are also not pronounced the same. These aren't good examples. |
They sound the same when a native speaker is saying them a mile minute. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| kreitler7 wrote: |
| 네/내 are not pronounced the same in Korean. Also, 한아/하나 are also not pronounced the same. These aren't good examples. |
They sound the same when a native speaker is saying them a mile minute. |
I've asked a bunch of Koreans about 네/내 and it always goes the same way. They say "Yes! There is a difference in pronunciation!" Then I ask them to demonstrate and they shake their heads and say "Well, maybe there isn't a difference after all..."
What gives? |
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nateium
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| If old Caesar spoke latin to you, you wouldn't know what the hell he was talking about. |
If you've had a decent university education, you should be able to have some idea. ...definitely if old Cesare wrote you a short note.
| kermo wrote: |
I've asked a bunch of Koreans about 네/내 and it always goes the same way. They say "Yes! There is a difference in pronunciation!" Then I ask them to demonstrate and they shake their heads and say "Well, maybe there isn't a difference after all..."
What gives? |
My Korean teacher says no [there isn't a difference]. |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| kreitler7 wrote: |
| But, my argument still stands that, if I know all of the pronuciation rules of Hangul, I can pronounce any written Korean word correctly. |
Actually, your argument doesn't stand. While it might be more closely linked to the actual sound, it isn't true across the board and will become progressively less true with time.
The reasons why English words aren't always pronounced the way they're spelled has a number of reasons, but one of the big ones is just different accents. With this in mind, for someone from 충청도 a ㅆ might as well be ㅅ because they don't differentiate.
As languages change there are also sound changes. Many younger people nowadays don't say ~거든 although that's the way it's spelled in books -- they say ~거덩. ~고 is also often pronounced ~구 by younger people with a Seoul accent.
Because language is a dynamic and changing entity any attempt at spelling words according to the way they sound would require regular changes in spelling. Additionally, every accent would have its own unique spelling. Because Korean spellings weren't really standardized until relatively recently, and because the Seoul accent is by far the most common, it probably, at the moment, seems that Korean spellings make sense; however, exceptions like those I pointed out above will become more and more common. |
Sorry, Beaver, I can't follow your argument. To me, you're just saying that words change over time. Just like how we say "nuthin'" instead of properly saying "nothing". How does that have to do with properly pronouncing a written word?
Well, it seems that the majority of people on this thread seem to think that the English alphabet and pronuciation are more efficient and logical than Hangul. OK, I can live with everyone else being wrong.  . Face it guys: English is a mess. |
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normalcyispasse
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Location: Yeosu until the end of February WOOOOOOOO
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| Face it guys: English is a mess. |
Nobody denies that. We're also just pointing out that Korean is full of flaws, too. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
Sorry, Beaver, I can't follow your argument. To me, you're just saying that words change over time. Just like how we say "nuthin'" instead of properly saying "nothing". How does that have to do with properly pronouncing a written word?
Well, it seems that the majority of people on this thread seem to think that the English alphabet and pronuciation are more efficient and logical than Hangul. OK, I can live with everyone else being wrong. . Face it guys: English is a mess. |
Well, nuthin' is not, for someone in linguistics, bad pronunciation. The upper classes in English used to speak that way and have no recently come over to pronouncing it. It's the same as the missing 'r' sound at the end of words as seen in many accents of Britain and of the northeastern United States.
Your basic problem is that you think the written word is standard for the spoken word. It isn't.
More efficient? More logical? Who said anything about that? I was just pointing out that there are exceptions in Korean now and these exceptions will continue to grow -- just like any language. |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Beaver
Umm, well I would consider Webster's as the proper way to pronounce a word. And it doesn't say "nuthin" as being correct. So, uh, are you the authority on pronunciation instead of Webster's?
I understand that people don't quite speak the way that words are supposed to be pronounced. But, there is a standard pronunciation for all words, and that standard can be found in a dicitionary (notably Websters). If there was no standard, what is the point in having a written language?
All I am saying, is that Hangul is more useful because if there is a word written in Hangul, most Koreans will say it how it is meant to be said (according to the standard in their dicitionaries).
ex) Iran: is it Eye-ran, Eye-ron, Ih-ran...people say it too many ways. According to Webster's it can be Ih-ran or Ih-ron. That is the standard for English. There is no "Eye-" like many people say.
Koreans write the country like this 이란 . There is only one way to say it and everbody says it the same way. It may not be the correct Arabic pronuciation, but it is the standard for Korean. No variations, no confusion. That's what I like about Hangul. |
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ajgeddes
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Location: Yongsan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| Koreans write the country like this 이란 . There is only one way to say it and everbody says it the same way. It may not be the correct Arabic pronuciation, but it is the standard for Korean. No variations, no confusion. That's what I like about Hangul. |
Especially seeing as it isn't Arabic at all, buy rather Persian. And the reason we don't have a single pronunciation in English is because we speak differently. Are you also going to tell Brits that Aluminium is wrong because Websters says it is Aluminum? |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| But, there is a standard pronunciation for all words, and that standard can be found in a dicitionary. |
Yeah, I hate it when the man with his finger on the button pronounces it "new-cue-lar". |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Especially seeing as it isn't Arabic at all, buy rather Persian. And the reason we don't have a single pronunciation in English is because we speak differently. Are you also going to tell Brits that Aluminium is wrong because Websters says it is Aluminum? |
Too lazy to research the entymology of "Iran". Sorry. Anyways, where does the standard for our speaking come from? We don't need a standard? There are two standard pronuciations for "Iran" in English. That's it. And no, I wouldn't argue with the Brits, because Webster's says that both "aluminium" and "aluminum" are correct. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| No variations, no confusion. That's what I like about Hangul. |
Don't people from Busan read the same Korean words and have their own pronunciation? |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ever notice the L/R that is an 'N' in Gangneung. Yeah the 릉 thing. Now say what you want...but shifting a liquid to a nasal aint the most logical thing I've ever seen. So therefore not all Korean words are said correctly simply by reading them. Lastly, nobody has ever claimed English spelling was sane, sensible, or rational, have they? Heck why does French have an H? |
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ernie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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"there are exceptions in Korean now and these exceptions will continue to grow -- just like any language."
exactly.
i think this is the main reason why hangeul is more 'phonetic' than english (aside from the fact that english uses a roman alphabet instead of its own)... how long has hangeul been in use? 50 years? what about romanized english? 1000? there are already TONS of exceptions in korean, too many to even begin to list...
for me, there are two main weaknesses with hangeul:
1. the first has nothing to do with the script itself and everything to do with the lack of flexibility allowed by korean speakers... i mean, double consonant sounds like ㅃ,ㅉ,ㄸ,ㄲ, and ㅆ are allowed at the beginning of syllables, so why can't they be different double (or triple) letters as well? not a hangeul problem but a hanguk problem, IMO...
2. it's non-linear, unlike speech, making spelling (at least for any non-korean) quite problematic (see 한아 vs. 하나)... |
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