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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
Beaver
Umm, well I would consider Webster's as the proper way to pronounce a word. And it doesn't say "nuthin" as being correct. So, uh, are you the authority on pronunciation instead of Webster's?
I understand that people don't quite speak the way that words are supposed to be pronounced. But, there is a standard pronunciation for all words, and that standard can be found in a dicitionary (notably Websters). If there was no standard, what is the point in having a written language? |
Webster's is reflecting a particular pronunciation and a case could be made that it is a standard, but words aren't supposed to be pronounced a certain way -- we'd have only one accent.
The point in having a written language is to express ideas in a written form -- that's a no-brainer. But, written language and spoken language, while there is a lot of overlap, are different forms. Written language is not particularly good at expressing tone, accent, stress, pitch, etc. -- things are apparent in spoken English.
If Webster's is the correct version, should we all stop pronouncing words as determined by the OED? Or should we go back to a simpler time and spell knight as cniht and pronounce it kaanighit? |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| kreitler7 wrote: |
| No variations, no confusion. That's what I like about Hangul. |
Don't people from Busan read the same Korean words and have their own pronunciation? |
People from Busan probably use some different words, but I don't think the pronunciation is all that different. I wasn't in Busan long enough to recognize that.
| Quote: |
| Ever notice the L/R that is an 'N' in Gangneung. Yeah the 릉 thing. Now say what you want...but shifting a liquid to a nasal aint the most logical thing I've ever seen. So therefore not all Korean words are said correctly simply by reading them. Lastly, nobody has ever claimed English spelling was sane, sensible, or rational, have they? Heck why does French have an H? |
Umm maybe you should spell out gangneung in hangul for me and I can comment on it.
I'm not sure if North Koreans or people from Busan or Seoul would say the same word differently because of an accent. Maybe they do. I guess Hangul is not perfect. However, in terms of uniformity of pronunciation and ease of use, Hangul is superior to the English alphabet. For every exception in Hangul, there must be 5 exceptions in English. I am still convinced that Hangul is a better alphabet. This whole time, my core argument has been that Hangul is better. Agreed? |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| kreitler7 wrote: |
| 네/내 are not pronounced the same in Korean. Also, 한아/하나 are also not pronounced the same. These aren't good examples. |
They sound the same when a native speaker is saying them a mile minute. |
I've asked a bunch of Koreans about 네/내 and it always goes the same way. They say "Yes! There is a difference in pronunciation!" Then I ask them to demonstrate and they shake their heads and say "Well, maybe there isn't a difference after all..."
What gives? |
I learned the 에 is similar to the e in red, while 애 is similar to ai in raid. The difference between red and raid. That's probably not going to hold true for all speakers, but that sounds about right. |
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hubba bubba
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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from the book:
Amog the rest, The Korean Language and Korean Writing are the greatest cultural inheritance of everythig in the world.
それらの残りのうちで、韓国語および朝鮮語記述は世界で最も大きな文化遺産です。
Of course, there are only thier language and writing in other country,too
もちろん、他の国においても,その国の言語と記述が存在します。
But their language and writing cannot express perfectly each and every.
しかし、それらの言語と記述はすべてを完全に表現することができません。
The Korean Langeage and Korean Writing can express perfectly everything,everysound, all of thinking, and all of feeling of this world.
韓国語および韓国の著作は、すべてのことを完全に表現することができます。あらゆる音,思考法すべて,そしてこの世の感情すべてを。
Like this, The Korean superior culture be Known to the general public, the foreigners are learing The Korean Langeage and Writing, is getting more and more many.
I can totally see my homeroom teachers smirkingly telling my little monsters this before they send them off to my "inferios" foreign class. |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, definitely c ocky and over-the-top. Maybe they should have just written,
"Hangul is clever." |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Smee wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| kreitler7 wrote: |
| 네/내 are not pronounced the same in Korean. Also, 한아/하나 are also not pronounced the same. These aren't good examples. |
They sound the same when a native speaker is saying them a mile minute. |
I've asked a bunch of Koreans about 네/내 and it always goes the same way. They say "Yes! There is a difference in pronunciation!" Then I ask them to demonstrate and they shake their heads and say "Well, maybe there isn't a difference after all..."
What gives? |
I learned the 에 is similar to the e in red, while 애 is similar to ai in raid. The difference between red and raid. That's probably not going to hold true for all speakers, but that sounds about right. |
The dipthong "ai" is written 에이, at least it is when Koreans write my name. In my first Korean study book, it said "ㅐ as in 'yesterday', ㅔ as in 'yesterday.'" If there is a difference, it's a nuance that we won't be able to capture just by writing English words (particularly since vowels are so sensitive to our respective accents.) Tee hee. Dipthong. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Smee wrote: |
| I learned the 에 is similar to the e in red, while 애 is similar to ai in raid. The difference between red and raid. |
I was taught that 애 was like the a in apple. 에 was short e, 애 was short a. Never actually heard anyone pronounce 애 as a short a, though. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| Smee wrote: |
| I learned the 에 is similar to the e in red, while 애 is similar to ai in raid. The difference between red and raid. |
I was taught that 애 was like the a in apple. 에 was short e, 애 was short a. Never actually heard anyone pronounce 애 as a short a, though. |
The distinction is academic. People can differentiate between the two and when attention is drawn to it they can produce both sounds distinctly, but by and large they are pronounced the same in everyday speech. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| kreitler7 wrote: |
| No variations, no confusion. That's what I like about Hangul. |
Don't people from Busan read the same Korean words and have their own pronunciation? |
People from Busan probably use some different words, but I don't think the pronunciation is all that different. I wasn't in Busan long enough to recognize that.
| Quote: |
| Ever notice the L/R that is an 'N' in Gangneung. Yeah the 릉 thing. Now say what you want...but shifting a liquid to a nasal aint the most logical thing I've ever seen. So therefore not all Korean words are said correctly simply by reading them. Lastly, nobody has ever claimed English spelling was sane, sensible, or rational, have they? Heck why does French have an H? |
Umm maybe you should spell out gangneung in hangul for me and I can comment on it.
I'm not sure if North Koreans or people from Busan or Seoul would say the same word differently because of an accent. Maybe they do. I guess Hangul is not perfect. However, in terms of uniformity of pronunciation and ease of use, Hangul is superior to the English alphabet. For every exception in Hangul, there must be 5 exceptions in English. I am still convinced that Hangul is a better alphabet. This whole time, my core argument has been that Hangul is better. Agreed? |
-the roman alphabet(NOT ENGLISH) is employed for three reasons. One being cultural, ie most of europes languages have been written FOR THE FIRST TIME in the roman alphabet. Therefore, an alphabet that was designed for Indo-European languages reflects those languages failry well. Its been established that Korean LACKS a 'th' as well as a distinct 'r' vs 'l'. Therefore to argue an asian alphabet is better suited to ANYTHING is a fundamentaly rediculous exercise second only to fighting about it on t the interne t while ahmmered! eyah! |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| kreitler7 wrote: |
| People from Busan probably use some different words, but I don't think the pronunciation is all that different. I wasn't in Busan long enough to recognize that. |
I couldn't understand half of what was said in the movie 친구. Nor anyone on Jeju. It wasn't a matter of different vocabulary (okay, it was sometimes on Jeju). |
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nateium
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| Smee wrote: |
| I learned the 에 is similar to the e in red, while 애 is similar to ai in raid. The difference between red and raid. |
I was taught that 애 was like the a in apple. 에 was short e, 애 was short a. Never actually heard anyone pronounce 애 as a short a, though. |
The distinction is academic. People can differentiate between the two and when attention is drawn to it they can produce both sounds distinctly, but by and large they are pronounced the same in everyday speech. |
Yup. You hit the nail on the head. |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
-the roman alphabet(NOT ENGLISH) is employed for three reasons. One being cultural, ie most of europes languages have been written FOR THE FIRST TIME in the roman alphabet. Therefore, an alphabet that was designed for Indo-European languages reflects those languages failry well. Its been established that Korean LACKS a 'th' as well as a distinct 'r' vs 'l'. Therefore to argue an asian alphabet is better suited to ANYTHING is a fundamentaly rediculous exercise second only to fighting about it on t the interne t while ahmmered! eyah! |
Wow buddy, have another one...
I never said that Hangul was good at representing English words. They don't need "TH" or distinct "R" and "L" for their language. All I have been trying to say this whole time is that the Korean alphabet works for the Korean language much better than the English alphabet works for English. I am trying to independently compare the two alphabets. I say the "English alphabet" because I am talking about the "English" language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_alphabet |
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ernie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| the letters used in english are NOT 'the english alphabet'! by your logic, romanized korean (e.g. anyeong haseyo) could be considered 'the korean alphabet' as well! you need to compare apples with apples! |
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kreitler7
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Ok fine, instead of trying to be as simple as possible, I will say "the Roman characters that we use to represent our English words".
Now I can teach my lessons like this:
Hey kids, do you know how many Roman characters that we use to represent our English words there are?
Yes teacher! There are 26 Roman characters that we use to represent our English words!
OK! Can you tell me what your favorite Roman character that we use to represent our English words is?
Yes teacher, my favorite Roman character that we use to represent our English words is "S".
Maybe you teach like that? |
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ceesgetdegrees
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a much more measured introduction from the authors of another phrase book Gateway to speaking Korean
"Frankly speaking, the Korean language is not one of the important international languages which are used widely in the world"
They are off to an honest start, then low and behold they give props to their arch enemies!
" Even though Japan is a small island nation, and the use of it's language was limited to Japan in the past, there are now a considerable number of people in other countries who study Japanese. This tendency can be attributed to the ever increasing national power of Japan"
They start to go off the rails here a bit though
"In the near future, Korea will play a leading part in world affairs. These days there is an increasing number of people who want to study the Korean language. This can be interpreted as meaning that Korea has begun to occupy an important place in the world" |
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