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Eliminate the Fed?
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keane



Joined: 09 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
They take back a portion of real wealth created by the loaned money.


No, they don't. Watch the video.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keane wrote:
mindmetoo wrote:
They take back a portion of real wealth created by the loaned money.


No, they don't. Watch the video.


Or you could direct me to some economic papers on this issue.

Quote:
Can't stand intellectually lazy/dishonest people. Done with you.


Really? Okay.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
ontheway wrote:
Yes. This condition can continue forever. However, the consumers of widgets must also have an income. They have to produce some product or deliver some service that earns them an income, also paid in gold. Then they can buy the widgets.


No problem.


For starters save for the problem I illustrated that led to the opium war. What if people don't want anything but the metal that backs your currency? You've not ever dealt with this problem. It's a real problem. It's happened at least twice. And it's a weakness. Without a gold standard, if you want Chinese products you have to adjust your domestic production to produce things Chinese consumers want. If it's as easy as sending them a single metal, there's little economic incentive to change until the gold runs out.

If there is a money making opportunity as simple as moving gold from the US to the UK, the economy will quickly engage in this activity until there is no longer any gold left to move. Gold is a highly finite resource.

And lets say you're American and bought 10 widgets. You make tin pots which earns you the income to buy those widgets. What advantage do you have making the tin pots in the USA? Why not move your business to the UK where you can make the tin pots and get American gold and enjoy the gold in a world where the gold is worth more?

For example, when the American dollar was very high compared to the Canadian dollar, it was highly advantageous to move TV/movie production to Canada. $100 Canadian bought roughly the same basket of goods in Canada as $100 US bought in the USA. When you cross the border, however, your 100 slips of paper suddenly became 150 slips of paper.

Now if you're the Fed, and this is happening to the detriment of your economy, you can respond by printing more slips of paper. This will devalue the US currency. Suddenly 100 American slips of paper become 130 slips of Canadian paper or 110 slips of Canadian paper. You have a lever of control. Gold, as noted, is finite. It's not so easy to just mine more gold.



I can tell by your posts that you are logically and mathematically confused by money and gold. This is a common problem. Your confusion and error is exactly the same as that of the mercantilists. They were confused and wrong too.

Adam Smith explained this problem in his "Wealth of Nations" which I highly recommend. Also, watch the videos.


There is no problem with the widget problem. You buy with gold. If you have no gold, you don't buy. There can be no problem unless a dishonest bank, central bank or government is manipulating the money supply by inflating the currency, or is engaged in some other mercantilist scheme.


One thing people don't understand is that in a free market, trade is always balanced over time. It must be. It is impossible for it not to be.

There are plenty of products and commodities that have price discrepencies from region to region of the Earth. These can occur within a state or nation or internationally. It doesn't matter one bit. With a gold standard and free trade, trade will always be balanced and the money will remain sound.

If you make gold coins stamped $20 and issue paper deposit tickets for the coins, then whether it is the paper circulating or the people take the gold coins directly is not relevant. Both represent the same $20. When the gold coin circulates, the paper does not exist. It is extinguished. If the paper is circulating, it is merely a deposit ticket that represents the gold coin. It doesn't matter where on Earth the piece of paper is held. It doesn't matter where on Earth the gold coin is held.

Don't get confused by the mercantilist nonsense.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another way to understand gold and money.

Think about your checking account. You can write a check. When you write a check, the money has to be in the account. No money in the account means the check is a fraud. Bogus. You are a criminal.


Now think about gold. It is in the bank. Paper money is like the check. It is written on the money (the gold) in the bank. If there is no money (gold) in the bank the money is a fraud. It is bogus. The issuer of the phoney paper currency is a criminal.


Now, think about the bad check artist. He writes bad checks, say 100 checks for $1000 on an account that has no funds. He spends the money. He seems to stimulate the economy. The merchants take the bad checks and turn over their goods. They feel successful and richer. They can pass the checks on to other people, each signing the back in turn.

(This used to be common for checks, passing from hand to hand with multiple endorsers. It happens with the bank checks in Korea.)

For as long as the checks circulate without being presented at the bank for payment, the fraud can continue.


The same thing is happening with the dollar today. It circulates along with all the other Fiat currencies. But, when the people finally realize that these currencies are worthless, they will fall to zero.

They are already falling at various rates in continuous half lives becomming microscopic remnants of their former values, robbing the people and transferring the wealth of the citizens who hold these worthless currencies to their predator governments.

They will all collapse eventually. It is inevitable. The question is how bad will the resulting recession/depression be? How much will the government do to make it worse?
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huffdaddy



Joined: 25 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:

One thing people don't understand is that in a free market, trade is always balanced over time.


Over time is the key phrase. While a gold standard maintains price levels over the long term, it does a terrible job of adapting to short term shocks to the system.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gold.htm
Quote:
Being able to expand the money supply in times of unemployment and recession is a critical tool for government. Before World War II, eight U.S. recessions worsened into depressions (as happened in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1882, 1893, 1920, 1933, and 1937). Since World War II, under Keynesian monetary policies, there have been nine recessions (1945-46, 1949, 1954, 1956, 1960-61, 1970, 1973-75, 1980-83, 1990-92 ), and not one has turned into a depression. In fact, no nation in the world has suffered a depression under Keynesian policies.


Read the rest of the article while you're there.
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ernie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mindmetoo"]
This is not seizing gold for the sake of taking gold. To cite the article you couldn't link:

"In a federal seizure warrant given to the AP by von NotHaus, federal agents allege the money and other properties seized in the raid were linked to money laundering, mail fraud and wire fraud."[/quote]

couldn't link and DIDN'T link are two different things... you asked for a source, not a link...

if the fed claims the company was involved in illegal activities, why have no charges been laid?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ernie wrote:

if the fed claims the company was involved in illegal activities, why have no charges been laid?


I don't know. But an argument from personal incredulity isn't evidence of some mysterious power the government has to seize the property of law abiding citizens. The article you referenced indicated they suspected wire fraud. That sure seems a far cry from a law on the books that allows the government to seize gold if a citizen chooses to buy gold as a hedge against monetary disaster.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
The same thing is happening with the dollar today. It circulates along with all the other Fiat currencies. But, when the people finally realize that these currencies are worthless, they will fall to zero.


But money is not worthless. It is backed by a law that states it is legal tender for all goods and services and debts. Money can be exchanged for the wealth of a nation.

Think of money as shares in a corporation. You could, if you wanted to, use shares as money. And some people certainly do. Corporations buy each other not with money but with an exchange of shares. A share is, however, worth only as much as what people perceive the company to be worth. Yes, it can be disaster if the company produces nothing of value. But that's a great motivator for it to produce value and produce more of it.

If gold were to suddenly lose value in the eyes of people, then the money backed by gold would be worthless.

We have to come back to this point. Either form of currency is backed by perception. In the case of gold, it's the perception of a narrow band of the economy. In the terms of a fiat currency, it's the perception of the breadth of the economy.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
There is no problem with the widget problem. You buy with gold. If you have no gold, you don't buy.


You never really answered the problem. The UK keeps selling widgets to anyone with gold in the USA until there is no more gold. US pot makers could relocate to the UK to get in on the gold catching game as well. And they would.
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ernie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and this ^ is what capitalism is all about!
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think going back to the pastoral system is better. Selling cows is a far more realistic and comprehendable approach. A cow is a cow. Inflation only comes about when someone tries to sell you a bunch of sick cows at the same value as a few healthy cows. There wouldn't be any issues about marriage either. You got the cows, you got my daughter, homey.

I suppose some geneticists would make a Federal Reserve based on cloning. There would be all these cows out there, but they'd die sooner and have more health issues. Inflation would be rampant. There's just no right way Crying or Very sad
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ernie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about a piece of paper that represents a cow? a 'cow standard' is certainly better than no standard at all, i.e. a corrupted fiat system!
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, it would add a whole new twist to the phrase "Eating the profits" Then you could give it an Indian twist and say "Eating the prophets"

Ben and Jerry's ice cream would sure be flashing a lot of bling.

Cowboys would be irritated that hip-hoppers stole their imagery to flash all over hip hop videos. "Leather and cow fur ni**a!"

I think the cattle standard would work.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fractional reserve banking is controversial, at best. However, there have been very high rates of economic growth under this system (though, maybe not because of this system) and as long as people don't really question it too much it should function just fine.
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keane



Joined: 09 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thepeel wrote:
Fractional reserve banking is controversial, at best. However, there have been very high rates of economic growth under this system (though, maybe not because of this system) and as long as people don't really question it too much it should function just fine.


The assumption that this is a good thing is the assumption that undermines the very argument and makes a you-know-what out of you-know-who. The key lies in the failing to question. Once people do, the system is revealed to be what it is: a scam. Worse, it is revealed to be an exponentially increasing system that is fundamentally untenable except for the very rich. There is a reason there are fewer and fewer one-paycheck families, and it is the fractional banking system.

Wink
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