Korean Job Discussion Forums

[legalquestions]

Any lawyers here teaching law, English/conversation, business, social sciences, at law firms, for the government, for a company, LSAT review courses, bar review courses, law/bar exam prep hogwans, etc.?

[MarionG]

Yes?

[excitinghead]

Ask these guys:

http://www.korealawblog.com/

http://ahnse.blogspot.com/

[tzechuk]

I know of one, why?

[Bouvguy]

Uh, yea, why do you ask? I'm teaching in Korea, but it's not law related.

[PRagic]

Pretty much every university ESL program has at least one ex-lawyer. The great thing for them is that at a lot of places, they are paid as Ph.D.s because their degree certificate reads 'Juris DOCTORATE'. Classic. I say more power to 'em.

[hogwonguy1979]

i know 1 who was disbarred, one whos law degree was not from an aba accred school teaching general english here. the second one is tenured but it was bought and paid for by his wifes family, not earned

also these 2 are THE WORST teachers i've ever seen. one is downright psychotic and the other is so arrogant its sick

[buymybook]

[Brendon Carr]

I'm Brendon Carr, the American lawyer/blogger operating Korea Law Blog. I concur with the previous poster's recommendation not to bother contacting the lawyer operating Korea Law Blog: It's a waste of your time and a waste of my time too. Don't bother me.

There's plenty of information available there on Korea Law Blog for free, and I comment prolifically on the Marmot's Hole, including on English-teacher issues (it's my time and I'll waste it if I want to), to which you are of course welcome -- but unfortunately there is no way to economically undertake the provision of legal services to English teachers. That's because the amounts you're fighting over don't leave anything there to pay us, not because I hate English teachers. Last night, I told an investment-bank client of ours what it would cost to defend a bogus W26,000,000 claim against them; we recommended settlement.

Here's the reality: There are usually over 200 hours that go into simple litigation, even where most of the facts are not in dispute. 200 hours costs my office over W25,000,000 in cash out of pocket once the associate's salary, employment taxes, secretarial support staff, and rent are paid. That excludes any input or support from a senior lawyer, and certainly leaves no profit either.

And guess what? In Korea, there is an automatic right of appeal. So if you win the first trial, you get to do it all over again if the opponent feels like it. In English-teacher disputes, the hagwon owner is usually a vexatious fiend, so you know the appeal is coming. That's not free, you know. We don't have to do all the work again (the writing is usually mostly already done), but still have to show up in court for all the trial sessions. My estimate is there is another W15,000,000 in out-of-pocket cost to me just in restating the arguments again, and showing up in court.

More complex cases take much more time. I am speaking here of the clear-cut matter where it's certain you'll win.

Okay, you could say we should be in a cheaper office (good luck finding cheap office space in Seoul), or pay lower salaries to staff, so that we can offer services to you at a lower cost. But guess what? If our offices are a pit then we can't attract other clients, and there aren't enough English teachers to make a full-time business serving only them. And if the salaries we offer are too low, we can't attract other lawyers to work for us. So we're stuck too.

That means every English teacher showing up with a sob story offering to pay even W5,000,000 (if that) for something that costs me a minimum of W25,000,000 is looking for a donation from my law firm. (By the way, I don't own the firm -- although I'm a partner I don't have the freedom to decide on my own to reach into the other partners' pockets to give you their money.) Sorry, friend: Just because you've got a dispute doesn't mean I am obligated to substitute your problem for my problem.

Koreans fighting over ticky-tack claims usually represent themselves in court as pro se litigants (with the "lawyer with a fool for a client" description being appropriate in most cases). Again, that you aren't capable enough with the Korean language to do so yourself is not my responsibility.

So, in summary, English teachers, please don't contact Brendon Carr at Korea Law Blog. If Korea Law Blog is helpful to you, you're welcome.

[hubba bubba]

sounds like you make too much money.

[Brendon Carr]

Well, sure -- you would think that. Another reason why few English-speaking lawyers in Seoul will take your cases. We have other clients urging us to raise our rates while the English-teacher set grouses about every nickel.

But still, if there was a way to make a living at representing English teachers there would be some lawyers willing to do it no matter how obnoxious you were. There just isn't an economic basis for it.

Check out small firm SiGong Law's KoreaLaw.com and see their own statement trying to shoo you away. Give Kim & Chang a call while you're at it.

[TECO]

Ha, aha!!

That's pretty much the reality of it, isn't it. Financially, it costs so much to go to litigation that the costs of going to court and paying legal costs far exceed the amount that the English teacher had stolen from them by the crooked hogwan owner.

Getting screwed here leaves one little recourse in getting the money back.

There are battles in life that you can win and those that you can't and it's probably best to just put the one's you can't behind you and move on.

Been there done that. It still pisses me off when I think about it but I realize that there wasn't anything I could do about it - short of being a millionaire and hiring lawyers to go after the school. But if I had a ton of cash, I wouldn't be teaching English for a living, would I!

I always shake my head when I hear teachers say that they are going to get a lawyer and go after the school or manager, etc. They just don't have any idea the costs involved in taking on something like that.

[Brendon Carr]

Small claims division of the local district court is the place to go with your, well, small claim. Korean district courts have a special division for claims up to W20,000,000 -- the rules of procedure and of submissions to the court are greatly relaxed to make it easier for plaintiffs to seek justice.

You never have to hire a lawyer, even for claims greater than W20,000,000. This is called self-representation, or pro se litigation. All litigants are entitled to represent themselves. All you have to do is set aside about 400 hours of your time (it's harder when you don't know what you're doing and have no training) and invest all your energy.

[cbclark4]

Brendon,

Thanks for your free advice, I'm sure it's worth every penny.

[Brendon Carr]