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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: Naomi Wolf on the Current State of Tyranny |
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http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9PulYpjGs&eurl=http://911blogger.com/node/12610
Watch it, discuss it.
It starts off a bit slow and pety, but gets better once she goes through her steps.
Summary from wikipedia
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The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot (ISBN 978-1933392790) is the most recent book released by author Naomi Wolf.
Referenced in April 2007 in her Guardian article titled Fascist America in Ten Steps, The End of America shows how events of the last six years parallel steps taken in the early years of the twentieth century's worst dictatorships and urges Americans to take action to restore their constitutional values before they suffer the same fate. The book illustrates ten common steps that can be witnessed in any collapse of a democratic state to one of fascist rule. The book was published in September 2007 by Chelsea Green Publishing of White River Junction, Vermont. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_America:_A_Letter_of_Warning_to_a_Young_Patriot
These are her ten steps.
1.Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2.Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3.Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4.Set up an internal surveillance system.
5.Harass citizens' groups.
6.Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7.Target key individuals.
8.Control the press.
9.Declare all dissent to be treason.
10.Suspend the rule of law. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| While I agree Bush has done some of those, and should be opposed, I think you are forgetting that we are 6 weeks away from the beginning of the remedy. The Constitutional remedy. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Naomi Wolf on the Current State of Tyranny |
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| loose_ends wrote: |
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9PulYpjGs&eurl=http://911blogger.com/node/12610
Watch it, discuss it.
It starts off a bit slow and pety, but gets better once she goes through her steps.
Summary from wikipedia
| Quote: |
The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot (ISBN 978-1933392790) is the most recent book released by author Naomi Wolf.
Referenced in April 2007 in her Guardian article titled Fascist America in Ten Steps, The End of America shows how events of the last six years parallel steps taken in the early years of the twentieth century's worst dictatorships and urges Americans to take action to restore their constitutional values before they suffer the same fate. The book illustrates ten common steps that can be witnessed in any collapse of a democratic state to one of fascist rule. The book was published in September 2007 by Chelsea Green Publishing of White River Junction, Vermont. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_America:_A_Letter_of_Warning_to_a_Young_Patriot
These are her ten steps.
1.Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2.Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3.Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4.Set up an internal surveillance system.
5.Harass citizens' groups.
6.Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7.Target key individuals.
8.Control the press.
9.Declare all dissent to be treason.
10.Suspend the rule of law. |
You are not even from the US. YOu work in Korea who has a National security law which is far tougher than the Patriot act.
Futhermore even with the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world.
And it behaves better during war than most.
Futhermore there is also the fact that the US legal system isn't up to dealing with Al Qaeda |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Naomi Wolf on the Current State of Tyranny |
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| loose_ends wrote: |
These are her ten steps.
1.Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2.Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3.Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4.Set up an internal surveillance system.
5.Harass citizens' groups.
6.Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7.Target key individuals.
8.Control the press.
9.Declare all dissent to be treason.
10.Suspend the rule of law. |
Step #1. I see two arguments here, neither of which are mutually exclusive.
A) 9-11 invoked Islamic Terror as the internal and external enemy.
B) The lead-up to the Iraq War invoked Saddam's WMD as the external enemy. Then when Saddam was replaced, Islamic Terror became a justification for staying.
As to A, I would respond that Islamic Terror is a real and tangible threat.
As to B, I would respond that the threat is not explicitly internal, but that the Bush administration has made arguments as to why Iraq's security is important to America's security. These arguments are not embraced by the majority.
Step #5. Needs to be more clearly defined. What is harassment? Citizens' groups refers to which citizens? Citizens of the very country or citizens of other countries?
Step #6. Yes, the manner of detention and release of foreigners in the war on terror is shameful. Is it completely arbitrary? Let us assume it is (I think there's a good case that it is fairly arbitrary), does it matter to a state of tyranny that this detention and release does not extend to citizens of America?
Step #7. Wow, okay. Didn't Clinton target Timothy McVey at one point? At what point does Step #7 rely on the previous steps? Clinton also targetted OBL before 9-11. Does it matter that he did not take steps to advertise the threat?
Step #8. How is the press being controlled. How is it even in danger of being controlled in the future? Define control.
Step #9 & #10 have not happened yet. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Naomi Wolf on the Current State of Tyranny |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| loose_ends wrote: |
These are her ten steps.
1.Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.
2.Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
3.Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
4.Set up an internal surveillance system.
5.Harass citizens' groups.
6.Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
7.Target key individuals.
8.Control the press.
9.Declare all dissent to be treason.
10.Suspend the rule of law. |
Step #1. I see two arguments here, neither of which are mutually exclusive.
A) 9-11 invoked Islamic Terror as the internal and external enemy.
B) The lead-up to the Iraq War invoked Saddam's WMD as the external enemy. Then when Saddam was replaced, Islamic Terror became a justification for staying.
As to A, I would respond that Islamic Terror is a real and tangible threat.
As to B, I would respond that the threat is not explicitly internal, but that the Bush administration has made arguments as to why Iraq's security is important to America's security. These arguments are not embraced by the majority.
Step #5. Needs to be more clearly defined. What is harassment? Citizens' groups refers to which citizens? Citizens of the very country or citizens of other countries?
Step #6. Yes, the manner of detention and release of foreigners in the war on terror is shameful. Is it completely arbitrary? Let us assume it is (I think there's a good case that it is fairly arbitrary), does it matter to a state of tyranny that this detention and release does not extend to citizens of America?
Step #7. Wow, okay. Didn't Clinton target Timothy McVey at one point? At what point does Step #7 rely on the previous steps? Clinton also targetted OBL before 9-11. Does it matter that he did not take steps to advertise the threat?
Step #8. How is the press being controlled. How is it even in danger of being controlled in the future? Define control.
Step #9 & #10 have not happened yet. |
1. Your analysis is good, however it is missing one element. Some will argue, and I think good evidence suggests, that the fear has been exaggerated by the media and/or propaganda efforts in years following 9-11. Examples of exaggerating a real threat to invoke more fear can be found throughout history in other dictatorships.
2. Secret prisons---> g-bay of course
3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens--->blackwater
4.internal surveillance--> we all know the new acts that have been passed
5.Harass citizens groups--> harassment of Islamic groups (American citizens) and recently 9-11 truth groups (American citizens).
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
| Quote: |
| Yes, the manner of detention and release of foreigners in the war on terror is shameful. Is it completely arbitrary? Let us assume it is (I think there's a good case that it is fairly arbitrary), does it matter to a state of tyranny that this detention and release does not extend to citizens of America? |
does not extend to citizens of america??? You know American citizens with 'links' to terror organizations have been detained, right?
7. one might argue this hasn't happened yet.
8. Control the press---> is this still a secret? does anyone still think the MSM is free to report on anything news worthy?????? there is AMPLE evidence that MSM is CONTROLLED.
9. habn't happened (yet)
10 hasn't happended (yet)
so my question to those interested. Do you think steps 9 and 10 could happen?
if another terror attack occurs (some might say, false flag) do you think 9 and 10 would happen. Would they be justified if another 9-11 occured? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Just cause two things have some things a little in common does not make them the same |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Just cause two things have some things a little in common does not make them the same |
i agree.
but if two things have 10 things in common, one might want to raise an eyebrow to see if they are the same. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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The US is nothing like the South American dicatorships.
And Gitmo isn't a gulag nor do prisoners have it so bad there. and Gitmo isn't just a legal problem but also a national security problem.
The US is still a very tolerant and free nation and also the US did many of the same things and perhaps even more during other wars. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
The US is nothing like the South American dicatorships.
And Gitmo isn't a gulag nor do prisoners have it so bad there. and Gitmo isn't just a legal problem but also a national security problem.
The US is still a very tolerant and free nation and also the US did many of the same things and perhaps even more during other wars. |
American PEOPLE are generally very tolerant and free when compared to other countries. I think the actions of the American GOVERNMENT are at odd s with the American PEOPLE. I see a huge difference between these two entities nowadays.
I've never been to Gitmo so I can't comment. Have you been there?
I'm not suggesting America is a dictatorship. If steps 9 and 10 occur, I would have a hard time not considering it to be a dictatorship. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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People have tried and failed to turn the US into a dictatorship several times. They have always failed. And given this list, why couldn't we make the same assumption about the UK?
Loose_end, you make some good points and miss others. You skip 7, but Valerie Plame is a perfect example of this. I have the suspicion that they did the same thing to McCain. (I really want to believe he is a good man in a bad position.) The thing is, that happens in politics, democracy or not.
Also, Gitmo isn't secret. The black prisons in former Soviet republics would fit that idea though. Problem is, the intelligence agencies in the US have been doing this for years. Pretty much an institutionalized practice since WWII. Why is it more disturbing now?
And the assumption that Blackwater soldiers would be willing to murder US citizens is a stretch. Most of them are US citizens, and most are ex-US military. The best thing about the US military is the people that join. Some are idealogues, and willing to fight and die for their country. These guys aren't the types who would go along with a dictatorship in this country. Most people in the military aren't these types though. The largest portion of volunteers in the military are there for the money/benefits they get. They aren't career guys, and they don't necessarily agree with what the politicians are having them do. Basically poor kids whose only chance to go to college is serving your 2, 4 or 7 year term. Now some of them sign up with Blackwater to make big cash, but it's a stretch to think they would be complicit in the overthrow of our goverment. The owners/leaders of Blackwater might want this, but their average employee would most likely quit rather than comply with orders to kill their neighbors.
This stuff is just more fearmongering. Now the fearmongering is coming from the left. Great. Awesome. Why don't reasonable people go into politics. Oh yeah, it's crap like this. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
And the assumption that Blackwater soldiers would be willing to murder US citizens is a stretch. |
Blackwater employees shot at civilians (unarmed) during their "deployment" to New Orleans.
Blackwater employees held American soldiers (uniformed) At GUNPOINT in Iraq.
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�Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers.� He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad�s Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company. |
[url]www.msnbc.com [/url]
Maybe it is more serious that you previously thought, eh?
Last edited by thepeel on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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I've ordered her book because I find her interviews so compelling. I'm stunned that she is on the "list" for people who might blow up airplanes. As are scholars, members of the ACLU and some of their kids. Insane.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=i0LvtQAQ6sc |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: |
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looseends:
IGTG's alter ego. What a load of horse bull manure. \\  |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| 1.Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact.
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2.Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
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Bullcrap? No. Fact.
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| 3.Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. Blackwater. Already has operated in NOLA. Not answerable to ANYONE.
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| 4.Set up an internal surveillance system. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. ID cards on the way. Cameras more ubiquitous all the time. Wire-tapping. E-mail surveilled. No-Fly lists. Even your library habits.
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| 5.Harass citizens' groups. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. Have infiltrated and harassed. People also excluded from political events. Race-based intimidation/disenfranchisement of voters. Etc.
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| 6.Engage in arbitrary detention and release. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact.
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| 7.Target key individuals. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. See No-Fly lists.
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| 8.Control the press. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. We know the press has been "asked" no to print certain things, and haven't. We know FauxNews hands out their talking points.
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| 9.Declare all dissent to be treason. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. You need to read the States of Emergency Declared with regard to Lebanon and Israel/Palestine.
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| 10. Suspend the rule of law. |
Bullcrap? No. Fact. Already done. Usurping/ignoring/gutting the Constitution is the same.
A hair's breadth, friends. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Whooeee! Have fun! |
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