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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Location: England
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
| As for your faith in the US and how it liberates countries, why don't you say that to the oppressed of South America, or the oppressed of Saudi Arabia, or Palestine, or Iran under the Shah, or Iraq under Saddam Hussein, or Indonesia under Suharto. The one and only reason Germany and Japan were allowed to 'flourish' was because allowing them to remain unstable would pose a threat to US interests, the US also needed a strong trading partner post-WWII. It has nothing to do with goodness or fairness or justice. |
I can see where you are coming from but sometimes the US has to opt for the lesser of two evils as is the case with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Nobody doubts that Saudi Arabia has an attrocious human rights record or that Musharraf is undemocratic but the status quo is much more preferable than the alternative scenarios. I was also surprised that you refered to Iran under ther Shah; the Shah was inherently corrupt but the Islamists are far more brutal. I think the US was partly motivated by the need for tarding partners with respect to Germany and Japan - its principal trading partners were bankrupt - but by allowing their former enemies to prosper so soon after the most devastating conflict the world had ever seen shows a certain amount of benevolence in itself. I am sure the spectacular failure of the Versailles Treaty only a couple of decades before weighed heavily on their minds too. It's worth noting that the US literally had the power to colonize Russia and China at the end of the war yet a different path was chosen. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Ok......
These days, what does South Korea have to offer the U.S. besides being a buffer between China and Japan? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Location: Nearly in NK
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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endo says he is an idealist, he says;
"And being all of 27 seven years old I guess I'm a bit of an idealist too. I sure hope that I don't loose this with age ."
That says it all. Bu thet way Boy I got 41 years on you. |
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RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Location: Turning on a Lamp
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
| When everything settle out Iraq will make three nice countries none of which will be a threat to its neighbors. |
A Jew who wants to see Iraq wiped off the map. How do you feel about Iran wanting to wipe Israel off the map? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Location: Nearly in NK
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Iraq was an artificiial construct in the first place. It was set up after WWI to accomodate promises made to the Hashemite family who had helped defeat the Turks, Thw Kurds in the north have always wanted their own country, the Shia in the south and the Sunni in the middle have never gotten along.
It is not the destruction of Iraq but the liberation of the Kurds and Shia that will happen.
You ask me how I as a Jew feel about the destruction of Israel? Well, God gave the land of Canaan to Abraham a few thousan years ago and that is now Israel. The land is theirs. Since the Palestinians and the Arabs still refuse to recognize Israel's creation, even afte losing six wars, I have scant sumpathy for them.
The Israelis would, before being "destryed" turn the middle east into a glass parking lot. I would hope that there is a peaceful solution but I am not optimistic. Iran would make several nice countries too. The Baluchis in the east have been revolting, the Kurds would like to join ther fellow Kurds, the Azeri in the north are restive.
You have just given me a great idea. |
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mack the knife

Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: standing right behind you...
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| North Korea has always been China's b*tch. China controls the oil pipelines into N.Korea, and have used this fact to manipulate the government of N.Korea over the years. |
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Troll_Bait

Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think that if the North Korean government suffers a catastrophic collapse, China will most certainly send in troops to restore and maintain order. I did not put that in quotation marks because I think it will be a sincere goal. However, taking control of North Korea, and installing a puppet government, will be a bonus that they won't pass up.
This is why the South Korean government is so desperate to prevent such a collapse, and bends over forwards at the North's every whim. Only a "soft landing" will allow the South's business leaders access to the North's resources (which are probably cheap labour more than minerals). |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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You should put that in quotations because you're correct...
There are 100,000 CPLA regulars assigned to the regions near the border with North Korea and with Chinese completing its "Northeat Project", they are trying to lay legitimate claim just in case of NK's collapse..
.....and you know what...I am all for it...... |
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earthbound14

Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Location: seoul
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Woden wrote: |
You clearly are completely clueless as to how the world works.
As for your faith in the US and how it liberates countries, why don't you say that to the oppressed of South America, or the oppressed of Saudi Arabia, or Palestine, or Iran under the Shah, or Iraq under Saddam Hussein, or Indonesia under Suharto. The one and only reason Germany and Japan were allowed to 'flourish' was because allowing them to remain unstable would pose a threat to US interests, the US also needed a strong trading partner post-WWII. It has nothing to do with goodness or fairness or justice. |
you clearly can't read or debate
I didn't profess faith in America's ability to liberate. I professed a greater of two evils in this case. I never said there weren't other countries that were in need of something better, and I never said they weren't supported by a blind (if not two faced) American regime. America's horrible foreign policies and their unwillingess to do anything unless they see a direct threat or even possible profit is not in question.
Also, America isn't the great liberator, they have bombed and killed more civilians than any other country in the history of the world. They are the champions of terror tactics and arms dealing. But in their defence, they haven't been as greedy or as nasty as they could have been, they haven't been as horrible as others may have been if they were in the same position of power. China, North Korea, Iraq for example. Perhaps they were guided by economics, perhaps they were motivated not to go against the UN rather than actually desiring peace. Whatever the case, many countreis have flourished in the world of capital and democracy (as flawed as they may be).
If Japan and Germany were such a threat, then why weren't they dismantled, cut apart and given to the highest bidder? At the end of WW2 these countries were at the mercy of the Allied forces, yet they were allowed to exist and become the great free countries they are today. Yes they had lean times, and other less powerful countries were not given the same courtesy. Say what you will, western powers, as dispicable as they have been in the past (Yanks being at the top of the list), have been more humanitarian than North Korea and even China.
And yes, those in politics may not be quick to rush into NK and liberate the people as I might wish, and they may have even allowed dictators to flourish in the great liberated south, or created Iraq itself. It doesn't diminish my desire to see Kim Jong-il's head on a pike. North Korea is a very sad situation and I wold love to see them united with the South (as imperfect as they may be) and I think China has absolutey no right to an inch of North Korean soil. Under the rule of Kim Jong-il, NK should be forbidden from selling any part of it's country (even if it is only minerals) to anyone without the expressed consent of the South and the UN. NK should be resricted and protected by the UN until either a peace is established or someone does the right thing and sentences a dictator to death. China is not a friendly player in this matter and they have demonstrated in recent history the willingness to take over countries by force, slaughter their own people, and use military threats to keep Taiwan in line. I don't recal the US needing to threaten any of their states in recent history, Kent State was a day in the playgroung compared to Tiananmen Square and the attack on Iraq is not in the same league as the annexation of Tibet. Whatever the case, I would rather see the UN walk in there and do something. I was only using the US as an example of a western power's lesser evil in the matter, possibly giving some credibility for the use of force to remove Mr Kim.
next time instead of calling me clueless, you should take the time to express yourself or even educate me on what I may have missed. You are an English teacher are you not? |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| earthbound14 wrote: |
As for Hong Kong, it was a really nice gesture for the Brits to give it back, but why exactly give it back to a dictatorship?
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Because it is Chinese. Also China is not a dictatorship, go put another Che Guevera poster on your wall. |
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endo

Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Location: Seoul...my home
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
You ask me how I as a Jew feel about the destruction of Israel? Well, God gave the land of Canaan to Abraham a few thousan years ago and that is now Israel. The land is theirs.
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No use arguing with this geezer.
When you have people who actually believe a magical man in the sky (who's not only homicidal bit vengeful...excellent traits to have in an al loving God) you quickly realize there's no reasoning with him. |
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earthbound14

Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Location: seoul
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| earthbound14 wrote: |
As for Hong Kong, it was a really nice gesture for the Brits to give it back, but why exactly give it back to a dictatorship?
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Because it is Chinese. Also China is not a dictatorship, go put another Che Guevera poster on your wall. |
come on they were having public executions in stadiums no less than 20 years ago, execution trucks are still rumoured to exist.....and have you heard of the great fire wall of China?
Yes, yes, it's all very western these days and you can buy more American stuff in China than you can in Korea, but it's harldy a free modern place. In ways it is, and in some ways the communist regime was even very forward thinking, but still I don't think I need to put up another Che poster. Besides he was a communist and probably would have been found fighting the Yanks in Iraq rather than the Chinese if he were alive today.
Hong Kong is Chinese? Wow, didn't know that. That's why so many Chinese people live there. No need to be snippy. Where's you Che poster? |
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earthbound14

Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Location: seoul
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
You ask me how I as a Jew feel about the destruction of Israel? Well, God gave the land of Canaan to Abraham a few thousan years ago and that is now Israel. The land is theirs.
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Who is this "god" you speak of? I know only of Alah. Strange white men always yammering on about god this and god that. Youd'd think he owened the place or something. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Good, if China was to take over the northern half of the country, that would mean the people would be more nicer and more open to foreigners than if the southern half took control of it......
And they would be less xenophobic than their southern brothren too..... |
If you think this is a good thing then you are a certifiable moron.
How could this be good? If you look at the wall of china then tradionality China has been no where close to Korea.
Also, if not for China then Korea would be one country anyway.
Plus, would the USA really like thier sacrifice over the years to be subsumed by China? and is it justifiable?
If you bow down to China then you are an idiot plain and simple and I don't care what country you come from. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mercury wrote: |
| korea is like a skinny hogwan teacher with a big mouth at a bar that is yelling at everyone and showing off and telling everyone how 'cool' he is, flashing some money, talking, talking, challenging guys, but WITH his co-worker, a big crazy hair lined trigger street fighter, who for some strange reason, promised the skinny guy he would protect him. But the fighter is getting more annoyed as the minutes pass and he is about ready to leave. |
I think I saw them last night at a bar! To make it even worse, the skinny one was blaming everyone else for his problems! |
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