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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Komerican: How many times have you had a drunk Korean come up to you and make monkey noises to imitate the way you speak? I'd venture it's in the neighborhood of zero. It's happened more than a dozen times to me. I do not look like a monkey. I am Caucasian. And I speak Korean. It's quite easy to communicate with me like a human being.
One day you will realize that Korean society is racist and the government here, regardless of the laws and the Constitution prohibiting racist policies by government agencies and private businesses, doesn't care a whit about it. And the general public doesn't care either. Merely talking on the subway escalator with one of my coteachers, who is female, got her a diatribe from another drunken Korean man for "being with that cursed foreigner." Where I lived in the United States, if someone spouted racist stuff like that in a public setting, many people would have verbally accosted the racist moron. Here? Not a word. Not even a pretense at being embarrassed for the poor woman getting the brunt of the diatribe.
Caucasians get much less of the racism other foreigners here do. Since Metropolitan is Black, I can easily believe his version of events. It's not at all out of the ordinary for a drunken Korean racist man in Korea to do. |
Yes there are, obviously, racist koreans. I've had koreans take issue with me speaking English in bars. I don't think I can call them racists since I'm ethnically korean. I'm not defending those morons.
I'm merely saying that I'm not satisfied as of yet that we have enough to make a judgement about the cops in this case. What you think about koreans has nothing to do with the facts of this case.
What's clear is the alleged perp was drunk and a racist. What's also clear it seems is that the alleged victim here did in fact assault the drunk. That adds another dimension to the incident. The only question is whether there were exculpating circumstances that absolve the alleged victim of liablity. We need to know what those are. The alleged perp merely being a racist and a drunk are not in itself sufficient to do that. What we don't know is whether the alleged victim had sufficient reason to believe his life or limb was in imminent danger. and even if he thought he was in danger that might not meet the legal test. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Removing someone's hand from your body does not constitute assault. On the other hand, putting your hand, unwanted, on another's body does.
By the way, even threatening or attempting to hit someone is illegal here. You can make a verbal threat or you can feign doing it in a threatening manner and you've broken the law. I was pleasantly surprised to discover this fact when a drunken man on a train was trying to hassle me and I just ignored him. A nice middle-aged Korean woman sitting to my left told the man that he should be quiet and quit bothering the passengers. The drunk took a swing at her and luckily she moved out of the way in time. A young Korean man went forward to fetch the conductor while I went aft to fetch the conductor while another man stood between the woman and the drunk.
When the conductor returned with me to the scene (it was a local train waiting for departure so it sits at the main station's platform for quite a while), the conductor ordered the drunk off the train. The drunk refused so the conductor used his radio to call the Railroad Police, who are actual police officers. The drunk kicked and hit the first policeman and then two other police officers arrived and they held the drunk down until he quit resisting. The three officers then carted the drunk off.
The conductor and the police took statements from the woman who was sitting to my left, from the man who ran forward looking for the conductor, from the man who stood between the drunk and the woman, and from me. The police later called me to tell me what the drunk had been charged with and that the Prosecutor accepted my written statement in lieu of personal appearance since I live so far away (happened in Daegu while I live in Busan). There would be no issue of apology money with the assault on the cops because police officers are prohibited by law from accepting that.
So, putting your hands on someone; i.e., grabbing them or any part of their clothing is illegal as is making threatening speech or actions.
Now back to you, Komerican. Yes, you are defending the drunken man in Metropolitan's case. You have clearly indicated that you think the only fact is that Metropolitan assaulted the drunk. You are wrong and thus we yet more proof from you that you are an apologist for the worst of Korean society.
And make no mistake about it, I am not saying all Koreans are racist. I am saying that the society in this country is heavily racist. Where I grew up in the US was incredibly racist and it took government action to change that society. There have been vast improvements in race relations in that area. It will take government action here to make the same progress. Sadly, the government here uses racist attitudes for its own purposes.
And you continue to be an apologist for that. I wonder how much race plays into your being an apologist. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Removing someone's hand from your body does not constitute assault. On the other hand, putting your hand, unwanted, on another's body does.
By the way, even threatening or attempting to hit someone is illegal here. You can make a verbal threat or you can feign doing it in a threatening manner and you've broken the law. I was pleasantly surprised to discover this fact when a drunken man on a train was trying to hassle me and I just ignored him. A nice middle-aged Korean woman sitting to my left told the man that he should be quiet and quit bothering the passengers. The drunk took a swing at her and luckily she moved out of the way in time. A young Korean man went forward to fetch the conductor while I went aft to fetch the conductor while another man stood between the woman and the drunk.
When the conductor returned with me to the scene (it was a local train waiting for departure so it sits at the main station's platform for quite a while), the conductor ordered the drunk off the train. The drunk refused so the conductor used his radio to call the Railroad Police, who are actual police officers. The drunk kicked and hit the first policeman and then two other police officers arrived and they held the drunk down until he quit resisting. The three officers then carted the drunk off.
The conductor and the police took statements from the woman who was sitting to my left, from the man who ran forward looking for the conductor, from the man who stood between the drunk and the woman, and from me. The police later called me to tell me what the drunk had been charged with and that the Prosecutor accepted my written statement in lieu of personal appearance since I live so far away (happened in Daegu while I live in Busan). There would be no issue of apology money with the assault on the cops because police officers are prohibited by law from accepting that.
So, putting your hands on someone; i.e., grabbing them or any part of their clothing is illegal as is making threatening speech or actions.
Now back to you, Komerican. Yes, you are defending the drunken man in Metropolitan's case. You have clearly indicated that you think the only fact is that Metropolitan assaulted the drunk. You are wrong and thus we yet more proof from you that you are an apologist for the worst of Korean society.
And make no mistake about it, I am not saying all Koreans are racist. I am saying that the society in this country is heavily racist. Where I grew up in the US was incredibly racist and it took government action to change that society. There have been vast improvements in race relations in that area. It will take government action here to make the same progress. Sadly, the government here uses racist attitudes for its own purposes.
And you continue to be an apologist for that. I wonder how much race plays into your being an apologist. |
attempted assault is illegal in most countries.
all I've said is that we can't glean that much from the meagre supply of facts that we have. Certainly not enough to indict a whole police force.
You're right that I may have overstated somewhat that we may have an established assault. What we have established so far, is one charge of an alleged assault. My main point stands, however, which is that we can't conclude any racism on the part of the police. We don't know enough. I can't even access metropolitician's blog.
as I said before, we need to hold off on any judgements about the cops. The police in the example you gave seemed to be pretty even-handed. What I'm confused about is where are the witnesses for Metro's side? |
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Scotticus
Joined: 18 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
There's usually a lot of nuance involved that you don't seem to take into account. |
Ironic, considering you obviously know jack shit about legal systems, both in your own country and in this one. Even more amusing is your use of the term nuance, considering you're arguing that your legal system in Australia has no nuance whatsoever. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.
| komerican wrote: |
Actually, in the US most cases are plea bargained, about 95%.In other words, most cases do not go to trial. If every case went to trial and you had a full disclosure of the facts with witnesses and complete presentation of the plaintiff's and defendant's cases you would paralyze the whole criminal justice system. |
You seem to be confusing plea bargains and what happens in the K-Legal system. In a plea bargain, the accused admits guilt and, as an incentive/reward for saving the tax payer's money/time, they are given a shorter jail sentence. They are still punished for their crime. Justice is still served.
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| The way it's set up here in korea avoids a very costly trial, costly to the taxpayers, unless there are real injuries sustained in the incident. |
That's the problem. In Korea, "real injuries" only count if you paid some doctor to tell the court you're injured. Show up in court with a pair of *beep* and not acting like an injured child and they think you're A-OK and award you nothing. Show up in a wheelchair and you're good to go! |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Scotticus wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
There's usually a lot of nuance involved that you don't seem to take into account. |
Ironic, considering you obviously know jack *beep* about legal systems, both in your own country and in this one. Even more amusing is your use of the term nuance, considering you're arguing that your legal system in Australia has no nuance whatsoever. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.
| komerican wrote: |
Actually, in the US most cases are plea bargained, about 95%.In other words, most cases do not go to trial. If every case went to trial and you had a full disclosure of the facts with witnesses and complete presentation of the plaintiff's and defendant's cases you would paralyze the whole criminal justice system. |
You seem to be confusing plea bargains and what happens in the K-Legal system. In a plea bargain, the accused admits guilt and, as an incentive/reward for saving the tax payer's money/time, they are given a shorter jail sentence. They are still punished for their crime. Justice is still served.
| Quote: |
| The way it's set up here in korea avoids a very costly trial, costly to the taxpayers, unless there are real injuries sustained in the incident. |
That's the problem. In Korea, "real injuries" only count if you paid some doctor to tell the court you're injured. Show up in court with a pair of *beep* and not acting like an injured child and they think you're A-OK and award you nothing. Show up in a wheelchair and you're good to go! |
as I wrote scottifcus, about 95% of felonies in the States are plea bargained. That means that charges are reduced, for example, from assault to attempted assault. Or defendents can enter a No Contest plea, which is not a guilty plea. Therefore, this can have a significant affect on how future crimes by the same defendent are handled. Also, in civil trials, arbitration handles the vast majority of cases. What's clear scotticus is that the portrayal on these pages that the western justice system prosecutes all crimes unlike the korean system is a false one. Think about it scotticus, 95% of the felony cases in the US involves the prosecution making deals that reduce charges or even throw out some lessor charges.
Korea, unlike the US, is a civil law jurisdiction and as such traditionally does not have a Common Law plea bargaining process. Hence, the present system that tries to lesson trials by using arbitration rather than confrontation.
and if you're talking about lieing in court you should familiarize yourself with personal injury cases. Doctors from both sides giving opposite testimonies. Who's telling the truth? answer, depends on who is paying the doctor. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.
| komerican wrote: |
| as I wrote scottifcus, about 95% of felonies in the States are plea bargained. That means that charges are reduced, for example, from assault to attempted assault. |
The reduced charges are to a lesser included offense related to the offense originally charged. A defendant will take the plea bargain as an incentive instead of being sentenced for the more serious crime which the defendant and/or his lawyer is convinced the prosecution can prove to a court. Part of the plea bargain is admitting in court to the elements of the crime originally charged. The sentencing is what the plea is about.
There is also the concept of Estoppel. Since you seem to think you're so full of knowledge about the law, I'll let you try to explain that one on your own.
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| Or defendents can enter a No Contest plea, which is not a guilty plea. |
Actually, it's treated by the courts as a guilty plea. No contest pleas may have different consequences than guilty pleas if there is a civil case filed by the victims of the crime or if there is an insurance issue involved. The criminal court's decision, though, may weigh more heavily than the plea itself.
| Quote: |
| Therefore, this can have a significant affect on how future crimes by the same defendent are handled. |
A criminal trial's sentence will be related not to the defendant's pleas but to his previous convictions.
| Quote: |
| Also, in civil trials, arbitration handles the vast majority of cases. What's clear scotticus is that the portrayal on these pages that the western justice system prosecutes all crimes unlike the korean system is a false one. Think about it scotticus, 95% of the felony cases in the US involves the prosecution making deals that reduce charges or even throw out some lessor charges. |
I'll assume you mean lesser charges here and are not limiting your blather to tenant-landlord cases. Some jurisdictions require the contesting parties attempt arbitration before the parties seek the aid of the courts. Not all jurisdictions require that.
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| Korea, unlike the US, is a civil law jurisdiction and as such traditionally does not have a Common Law plea bargaining process. Hence, the present system that tries to lesson trials by using arbitration rather than confrontation. |
Korea has a rather healthy plea bargaining system in place.
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| and if you're talking about lieing in court you should familiarize yourself with personal injury cases. Doctors from both sides giving opposite testimonies. Who's telling the truth? answer, depends on who is paying the doctor. |
There is a difference between perjury in court and differing medical opinions. You may have noticed in your life that doctors don't issue medical facts; they state medical opinions. |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Unlucky break.
I think Metro did a pretty good job of covering his butt concidering, the recording does show that he was in control of himself while the man was blabbering and drunk. While we don't know the whole truth, this seems to be a case worthy of supporting.
Being drunk in public is enough to put you in the drunk tank and your testimony ignored. The man clearly wasn't beaten and in a drunken state a few bruises aren't at all unlikely.
Perhaps this is a case where someone should do some investiation or hadn this story over to someone who might do some investigation. Perhaps Metro's home country would step up and support him if is claims are legit. While our writing may be of some use, I think we are nothing more than a reaction without enough facts. Perhaps this is a situation of bringing the story to someone wiht more power to delve into the matter than those of us on a discussion board?
I skimmed the thread, and I may have missed this, but who exactly do you think we should bring this story to? |
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Typhoon
Joined: 29 May 2007
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, in the US most cases are plea bargained, about 95%.In other words, most cases do not go to trial. If every case went to trial and you had a full disclosure of the facts with witnesses and complete presentation of the plaintiff's |
You misunderstood me. What happens in Korea is not usually a plea-bargain. Everyone else did a better job than I could do explaining what a plea-bargain is for you so I edited my useless post. |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
In Australia, where I'm from, police are obliged to act on complaints...
Just because the guy's drunk doesn't neccessarily mean he's lying, or should be disregarded. |
That, sir, is a load of bollocks. It is illegal to be drunken and in public in Australia. If you're in the sticks, more often than not the cops will lock you up for it. Especially if you are young. In the city, they will probably tell you to piss off home and come back to make your complaint when you're sober. Seen plenty of blues play out in the presence of the cops. If you're drunk, the cops NEVER give a toss what you're whinning about (assuming no one's pissing blood). They'll just break things up, and if anyone annoys them that person can expect a 24 hour vacation in the drunk tank.
Clearly you have no idea what the cops are like back home, mate. |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
In Australia, where I'm from, police are obliged to act on complaints. Perhaps, I shouldn't assume that's the case in a lot of countries... |
You shouldn't assume that's the case in your own country, sir, for what you have written is a load of bollocks. Australian cops won't charge someone based on a drunk guy's accusations and a bruise. They'll take names and tell the drunk to piss off home and come back when he's sober. Guarantee it. Unless someone is in danger, they have no requirement to act urgently. Nothing urgent about a damn shin bruise.
It's also illegal to be intoxicated in public in Australia. If you live in the sticks, good chance the cops will just give a drunk a 24 hour vacation in the drunk tank if he is wondering around the streets and not of wealth. In the city they'll tell you to piss off home.
You have no idea about the cops back home, mate. |
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babtangee
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Location: OMG! Charlie has me surrounded!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| ...if someone makes a complaint, shows "evidence", and insists on laying charges by making statements etc - then yes. The police are obliged to act on it. |
Not for a friggin' bruised shin, they're not. You're dreamin', mate. Or havin' a laugh. Ridiculous! |
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maximreality
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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So far I haven't heard anything that would constitute as racism here, EXCEPT the drunk ajossi. Why are you so keen blaming K-cops here? What did they do wrong? They were right - that guy shouldn't have called the police in the first place but just let it go. That's the way Koreans handle things as well.
He's a drama queen.. can't you just see it already?
sigh. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| babtangee wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
In Australia, where I'm from, police are obliged to act on complaints. Perhaps, I shouldn't assume that's the case in a lot of countries... |
You shouldn't assume that's the case in your own country, sir, for what you have written is a load of bollocks. Australian cops won't charge someone based on a drunk guy's accusations and a bruise. They'll take names and tell the drunk to piss off home and come back when he's sober. Guarantee it. Unless someone is in danger, they have no requirement to act urgently. Nothing urgent about a damn shin bruise.
It's also illegal to be intoxicated in public in Australia. If you live in the sticks, good chance the cops will just give a drunk a 24 hour vacation in the drunk tank if he is wondering around the streets and not of wealth. In the city they'll tell you to piss off home.
You have no idea about the cops back home, mate. |
Every situations different, and it will depend on a variety of factors. How old you are, what you're doing, and (let's be honest) if you're Aboriginal or not.
It should be pointed out that the laws vary from state to state - but my understanding was that public drunkedness has been decriminalised since the Royal Commission in to Aboriginal Deaths in Custody - at least in W.A where I'm from.
Yes, being drunk can see you thrown in the drunk tank or, "sobering up centres", but it will depend on how drunk you are etc etc.
And you're right to say that most times drunken complainants get dealt with later, when people are sober enough to think about what they're doing - but, and stay with me for this - THE POLICE ARE OBLIGED TO FOLLOW UP ANY COMPLAINTS.
And lets be honest, on the whole if the guy accused of assault is standing right there - the cops will take him in for his statement, process him and send him home with an order to appear in court in his pocket.
I don't know where you're from that the police will let someone accused of an offence walk away clean from something that they think will need to be followed up later.
But then again W.A police are kind of rednecky. |
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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure whether they are required to follow up stuff like before. My father was a cop in Tasmania and he told me that they had to follow up all complaints no matter how stupid they seemed.
A couple of years ago a big fight broke out at a party I was at. I was in a town next to the murray river (Robinvale-Euston) and I called the NSW police since we were just over the border in New South at the time. I was real drunk and they were assholes to me and told me that they won't come and investigate if I didn't hang on and explain things more. Meanwhile there was a huge samoan fella and a huge whitie on the ground about to kill each other. I told them to hurry the fark up and they refused to come. I told them that I know they have to and told them the address, told them to hurry the fark up again and then hung up. They never showed up.
Maybe the rules have changed, or in some states it may differ, because all that happened was that they traced my number and called me back about an hour later and asked me if everything was ok.
Of course I had to give them some more abuse for being useless asses.
The end result was that no cops turned up anyway. |
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whatever
Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Location: Korea: More fun than jail.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| I don't think I can call them racists since I'm ethnically a dumbass. I'm not defending those morons. |
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