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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| earthbound14 wrote: |
| pugwall wrote: |
| earthbound14 wrote: |
As for Hong Kong, it was a really nice gesture for the Brits to give it back, but why exactly give it back to a dictatorship?
. NO. |
Because it is Chinese. Also China is not a dictatorship, go put another Che Guevera poster on your wall. |
come on they were having public executions in stadiums no less than 20 years ago, execution trucks are still rumoured to exist.....and have you heard of the great fire wall of China?
Yes, yes, it's all very western these days and you can buy more American stuff in China than you can in Korea, but it's harldy a free modern place. In ways it is, and in some ways the communist regime was even very forward thinking, but still I don't think I need to put up another Che poster. Besides he was a communist and probably would have been found fighting the Yanks in Iraq rather than the Chinese if he were alive today.
Hong Kong is Chinese? Wow, didn't know that. That's why so many Chinese people live there. No need to be snippy. Where's you Che poster? |
So Hong Kong belongs to China.
Look China is a better country than 10 years ago, a lot better than 20 years ago and a hell of a lot better than 30 years ago.
Anyway I think you need to look up what a dictatorship is.
The communist regime was never forward thinking under Mao and I really can't sympathise with you. I don't like the Chinese government, Chinese people don't like the Chinese government but I get sick of the West turning them into the blue meanies to give themselves something new to be scared of. The more pressure people put on the Chinese government, the more of a negative effect it has on the freedoms of Chinese people. Chinese people love China not their government but when the outside criticises the government they spin it as an attack on China. Just leave them alone. a change is coming but it can only come from the Chinese people. What gives you the right to pass your judgement? Who are you to say what happened in Tibet is worse than Iraq? At least China has a historical claim to Tibet.The Chinese government have rescued 300 million people from poverty in the last 30 years. What have your government done? Please just put your beret away or go and chain yourself to a power station or protest about something else that you don't really know that much about. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: |
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The Chinese view of what is part of China ("world") is scary.
Vietnam is still a part of China, as: no territory once claimed can be given up or else all is lost. That's the Chinese mentality on the issue.
Parts of Russia, India and much of central asian -stan countries are also part of China they have claimed and will again someday.
The problem of China is only going to grow. |
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lastat06513
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Location: Sensus amo Caesar , etiamnunc victus amo uni plebian
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Funny that you should mention Vietnam- China fought an intense border war with them in 1979 as they tried to lay claim to the northern most province in Vietnam (and to punish Vietnam for invading Cambodia and kicking out their staunch allies, the Kmer Rouge)....from what I remember from the New York Times article that was written about it, China lost an astounding 20,000 soldiers in the opening months alone......and there were skirmishes that lasted all the way 'til 1989, when a treaty to end hostilities was signed...
......my ex-father-in-law was a colonel in the CPLA who was sent to the Yunnan-Guanxi area as an equivalent to an S-3 Operations Department chief, my ex-wife told me stories of how he wasn't home for the first 2 years of her life because of that and that she was sent to live with her aunt just in case anything happened to her father.
Then lets not forget the short-lived yet very intense border skirmish between China and India in 1962 in which India was put on the run before negotiations started.
What gets me is that the Chinese always say "We have no intentions of world domination, we only want peace".........funny........they are in the works to build aircraft carriers (the news that its just "talk" is totally ridiculous) |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Chinese nationalism and the rampant xenophobia that accompanies it is worrying. Most Chinese don't know that man has been on the moon and wouldn't even believe you if you told them. They believe they are inherently superior. If you ask a Chinese why they can't move beyond the BBC news homepage into other sections they will tell you that it's because the the west has an inferior version of the internet. They are completely brainwashed and in my opinion have a bone deep hatred of the whiteman. They will probably never get over the Treaty of Nanking. I mean this is a country which for centuries believed - and still does to a large extent - that they were the centre of the world and that westerners were barbarians or savages. When we marched into the Forbidden City and imposed humiliating treaties on them it crushed their pride. It still rankles with them. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Chinese nationalism and the rampant xenophobia that accompanies it is worrying. Most Chinese don't know that man has been on the moon and wouldn't even believe you if you told them. They believe they are inherently superior. If you ask a Chinese why they can't move beyond the BBC news homepage into other sections they will tell you that it's because the the west has an inferior version of the internet. They are completely brainwashed and in my opinion have a bone deep hatred of the whiteman. They will probably never get over the Treaty of Nanking. I mean this is a country which for centuries believed - and still does to a large extent - that they were the centre of the world and that westerners were barbarians or savages. When we marched into the Forbidden City and imposed humiliating treaties on them it crushed their pride. It still rankles with them. |
What a racist and patronising post. I don't think that is true at all. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
The Chinese view of what is part of China ("world") is scary.
Vietnam is still a part of China, as: no territory once claimed can be given up or else all is lost. That's the Chinese mentality on the issue.
Parts of Russia, India and much of central asian -stan countries are also part of China they have claimed and will again someday.
The problem of China is only going to grow. |
Yeah but most Chinese do not believe this though. Please stop the vilification. First the Ruski's then the Muslims, why doe sthe West need a constant enemy to justify itself. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Chinese nationalism and the rampant xenophobia that accompanies it is worrying. Most Chinese don't know that man has been on the moon and wouldn't even believe you if you told them. They believe they are inherently superior. If you ask a Chinese why they can't move beyond the BBC news homepage into other sections they will tell you that it's because the the west has an inferior version of the internet. They are completely brainwashed and in my opinion have a bone deep hatred of the whiteman. They will probably never get over the Treaty of Nanking. I mean this is a country which for centuries believed - and still does to a large extent - that they were the centre of the world and that westerners were barbarians or savages. When we marched into the Forbidden City and imposed humiliating treaties on them it crushed their pride. It still rankles with them. |
What a racist and patronising post. I don't think that is true at all. |
Racist? How? If you don't think what I have said is true then offer a rebuttal. There is nothing remotely racist about that post and the only reason you find it patronising is because you are evidently very sensitive. The Chinese are highly nationalistic; who doesn't know that? Ignorance and xenophobia are the most obvious manifestations of extreme nationalism; Chinese nationalism is no exception. I mean seriously, don't you realise just how nationalistic the Chinese are? They genuinely believe that they are superior. Reconciling their firm belief in their inherent superiority with the abject humiliation they suffered in the nineteenth century will remain a barrier to social and educational development in the country. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| pugwall wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Chinese nationalism and the rampant xenophobia that accompanies it is worrying. Most Chinese don't know that man has been on the moon and wouldn't even believe you if you told them. They believe they are inherently superior. If you ask a Chinese why they can't move beyond the BBC news homepage into other sections they will tell you that it's because the the west has an inferior version of the internet. They are completely brainwashed and in my opinion have a bone deep hatred of the whiteman. They will probably never get over the Treaty of Nanking. I mean this is a country which for centuries believed - and still does to a large extent - that they were the centre of the world and that westerners were barbarians or savages. When we marched into the Forbidden City and imposed humiliating treaties on them it crushed their pride. It still rankles with them. |
What a racist and patronising post. I don't think that is true at all. |
Racist? How? If you don't think what I have said is true then offer a rebuttal. There is nothing remotely racist about that post and the only reason you find it patronising is because you are evidently very sensitive. The Chinese are highly nationalistic; who doesn't know that? Ignorance and xenophobia are the most obvious manifestations of extrteme nationalism; Chinese nationalism is no exception. I mean seriously, don't you realise just how nationalistic the Chinese are? They genuinely believe that they are superior. Reconciling their firm belief in their inherent superiority with the abject humiliation they suffered in the nineteenth century will remain a barrier to social and educational development in the country. |
Well racist as you have managed to bundle a country of 1.5 billion people under a single notion as if they were on breathing, pulsationg organism unable of independent thought. Without quotation, reasoning just blind prejudice of the highest order. 21st century orrientalism.
What is your evidence that Chinese believe they are superior? I see a lot more openess and interest in other cultures from the Chinese than say Korea. Secondly all the dialogue from the Chinese government talks of China changing itself rom the past. China how all believed it is the world (zhong guo, the middle kingdom) but it was this arrogance which caused its downfall 400 years. Everything I have read or been told about government policy has been dependent on China learning from its past. Even Deng Xiao Ping when he came into power 'said we should learn from foreigners'. The Chinese are proud of their country but why would they not be. After all they were the greatest civilisation in the world since the birth of Christ. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| Well racist as you have managed to bundle a country of 1.5 billion people under a single notion as if they were on breathing, pulsationg organism unable of independent thought. Without quotation, reasoning just blind prejudice of the highest order. 21st century orrientalism. |
By falsely labelling my post as racist do you seriously think you are going to inhibit me? Just drop the PC nonsense and tell me exactly why my post is racist. You might deal with the exceptions but I don't. Do you want me to qualify my remarks by saying the Chinese are generally highly nationalistic and xenophobic? I strongly suspect that you would feel the same level of indiganation and outrage even if I did.
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| What is your evidence that Chinese believe they are superior? I |
Speak to them. Hang out at with the 'elite' at Beijing University.
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| The Chinese are proud of their country but why would they not be. After all they were the greatest civilisation in the world since the birth of Christ. |
Many hundreds of years ago. The country has never been able to deal with its fall from grace. Heck, they still haven't gone through an industrial revolution in large parts of the country. |
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pugwall
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Gwangjuboy"]
| pugwall wrote: |
| Well racist as you have managed to bundle a country of 1.5 billion people under a single notion as if they were on breathing, pulsationg organism unable of independent thought. Without quotation, reasoning just blind prejudice of the highest order. 21st century orrientalism. |
By falsely labelling my post as racist do you seriously think you are going to inhibit me? Just drop the PC nonsense and tell me exactly why my post is racist. You might deal with the exceptions but I don't. Do you want me to qualify my remarks by saying the Chinese are generally highly nationalistic and xenophobic? I strongly suspect that you would feel the same level of indiganation and outrage even if I did.
You haven't given a justification for your remarks. I would like you to back up your remarks that the Chinese are xenophobic. Please do. I only see one xenophobe here. Your description is about as useful as someone saying all Americans are fascist, burger munching, geographically ignorant, Bush loving, loud mouth simpletons.
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| What is your evidence that Chinese believe they are superior? I |
Speak to them. Hang out at with the 'elite' at Beijing University.
I have friends from Bei Da. I used to live in China. My Chinese friends don't echo the statements you make. A lot of Chinese friends I have tell me they want democracy. Is this your reference, is this your evidence?
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| The Chinese are proud of their country but why would they not be. After all they were the greatest civilisation in the world since the birth of Christ. |
Many hundreds of years ago. The country has never been able to deal with its fall from grace. Heck, they still haven't gone through an industrial revolution in large parts of the country.
What is your eveidence for this. When so much of the official government line is China moving on from its past. Please enlighten me. China has not gone through an industrial revolution in parts of teh country because of
a)its really big
b) its really poor
c) It was run by a balding madman for 25 years
d) It was run by a century of incompetents and ravaged by opium addiction a century before that[/i] |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| You haven't given a justification for your remarks. I would like you to back up your remarks that the Chinese are xenophobic. Please do. I only see one xenophobe here. Your description is about as useful as someone saying all Americans are fascist, burger munching, geographically ignorant, Bush loving, loud mouth simpletons. |
If you carry on calling me xenophobic then I will just assume I am dealing with a kid who doesn't know what the word means. Seriously, move on. Now, back to the topic,
Chinese culture remains deeply racist. For the most part, the Chinese are in denial of their own racism, while white commentators, in their great majority, are either oblivious of it, or simply regard it as unimportant. Intended or unintended, this is an integral part of the white mentality, a product of the fact that whites never experience systemic racism and historically have meted out more than anyone else. Even liberals tend to look the other way.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1461208,00.html
| Quote: |
| What is your evidence that Chinese believe they are superior? I |
Go to China and speak to them; they are very brazen about it.
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| I have friends from Bei Da. I used to live in China. My Chinese friends don't echo the statements you make. A lot of Chinese friends I have tell me they want democracy. Is this your reference, is this your evidence? |
You can be a racist and still want democracy. In a country like China where over 90% of the populace is Han Chinese it's not as if democracy will make any impact in this area anyway.
Last edited by Gwangjuboy on Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| pugwall wrote: |
| VanIslander wrote: |
The Chinese view of what is part of China ("world") is scary.
Vietnam is still a part of China, as: no territory once claimed can be given up or else all is lost. That's the Chinese mentality on the issue.
Parts of Russia, India and much of central asian -stan countries are also part of China they have claimed and will again someday.
The problem of China is only going to grow. |
Yeah but most Chinese do not believe this though. Please stop the vilification. |
Most Chinese? I am not talking about the average farmer or factory worker! I'm talking about the Chinese government and educated elites!
Chinese people are to praised!  the Chinese government is to be villified  beyond belief for a multitude of reasons. There is fundamental distinction here, also at play with the Bush administration vs. American people, only, the U.S. has democracy to change foreign policy whereas China has one party rule, dogma and history all leaning toward expansion and Han-ification of other peoples and nearby lands. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| After all they were the greatest civilisation in the world since the birth of Christ. |
Yes, these kinds of statements really make us supporters of modern day China.  |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Also, if not for China then Korea would be one country anyway. |
You need to be careful about history. This is only true if you start counting at a given point. There are many other points where the blame would shift to any number of other actors, including the US. China is the LEAST responsible of all those you could blame. Much like a fight started by one kid, but the one to hit back gets blamed because that's who the teacher saw strike.
While most would blame Japan, there are at least three points in history where you can directly blame the US, for example. Korea, itself, could take the blame, of course. Russia. Kim Il-sung. Pick one. But blaming China is silly. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
The Chinese view of what is part of China ("world") is scary.
Vietnam is still a part of China, as: no territory once claimed can be given up or else all is lost. |
Sounds a bit like Islam. |
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