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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I have an F-5 and I have an F-5 visa stamp in my passport. Do you mean you don't have the stamp?! You had better go get that checked out. I agree the card means nothing. You should have the visa in your passport. |
Yes, a stamp in the passport about a change of 'status of sojourn.' So I am a 'sojourner.' To me that's linguistically just a slight step away from from 'guest.'
I am not here on a sojourn (a 'temporary stay.') This is my home.
I agree that in practice it pretty much works out to be a permanent residency visa, minus some rights, but unlike what we give to Koreans in NZ (permanent residency,) this is called "temporary residency."
Do you understand what I am saying? It's not that I don't like having it, it's that I should feel grateful for something less than ideal and what should have been a basic right from the very beginning. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
Marry whoever you want, just please don't expect me to believe that people with F-visas are less likely to act out than E-2 holders. "Been here longer, blood, sweat and tears, I'm racially connected to Korea." It just doesn't hold up to logical reasoning. Those arguments are farcical. It is, however, what Immi. seem to be doing. Criminal checks and med. checks are allright, I suppose, but I think they should apply to ALL people in Korea teaching children. Wasn't the guy who molested a kid at the Paju English Village an F-series holder kyopo? Perhaps some of you F-ers agree with me, but a lot of the talk here seems to be gloating about how much they will benefit from the new laws (if they even come down at all.)
I also think that the double standard applied to foreign men marrying Korean women vis-a-vis foreign women marrying Korean men is sexist, racist and wrong. Women can become permanent residents, but men can't. Wouldn't men with F-2-1 visas be in a better position to argue against this law than E-2 holders?
Frankly, shouldn't E-2 holders who stay here for more than 5 years be able to apply for permanent residency? I strongly believe that they should. If Korea wants to level the playing field and do business with Western, liberal democracies that admit thousands of Koreans as equals every year Korea should stop being so RACIST.
And while we're talking about the impossible, I want a speedboat for Christmas. |
I agree with all the above. Including wanting a speedboat for Christmas!
Like anyone, I don't want new regs which are more hassle for me, but I do agree they should be applied across the board. An F-visa teacher could be as much a child molester as anyone.
My Korean boss doesn't think so though. I talked with him about this and raised the point that a teacher is not safe because he's married. In his little Korean mind anyone married has shown themselves to be of good character. That's just how Koreans think. Perverts aren't married men. They're sleezy guys with stubble and tattoo's who lead unorthodox lives.
Don't blame the F-visa teachers. Blame small-minded, world-ignorant, Korean thinking. |
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basplar
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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To all those that are trashing F visa holders:
I married my Korean wife because I love my Korean wife and she loves her foreign husband. We aren't married because of nationality or for personal gain. Period. Marriage has serious commitments. Those who attack those who are married with someone who just HAPPENS to be Korean JUST because those married people happen to have a few more economic opportunities, are not only waisting Dave's bandwidth, but wasting the air we all breath. Please don't make these ignorant, broad generalizations about F2 and F5 visa holders. Every married couple here is just trying to do the best they can economically for their family, and people shouldn't be knockin' something that is a family value. Yeah,....that's right....F series folks are trying to make a buck like anybody else. Sorry if you don't like that. Yes, we don't have to deal with the constant bungholing that E2 folks get from immigration.(Which you SHOULD NOT have to deal with...and I do agree that immigration SUCKS, but is an unfortunate reality here). So, please just lay off the verbal flatulence and accept the Karma of life and do the best you can in your OWN life.
Peace and love to all. |
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steroidmaximus
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Marry whoever you want, just please don't expect me to believe that people with F-visas are less likely to act out than E-2 holders. "Been here longer, blood, sweat and tears, I'm racially connected to Korea." It just doesn't hold up to logical reasoning. Those arguments are farcical. |
sure. I wouldn't say I'm racially connected to Korea however, as I'm constantly reminded of the fact that I'm not, nor would I want that distinction. But since my Korean wife and 2 children rely on my financial support, rules should be relaxed so that I can better provide for them, plain and simple. You and Mr. Pink are correct: as a foreign male married to a Korean, the hoops were huge in that you had to work under an E2 visa at an E2 job and were unable to get the F visa. Add banking and housing problems i.e. I cannot get a loan from a bank since I'm a foreigner despite a solid credit history and tax statements, and my wife cannot since she doesn't have a paying job. Throw in a little "you don't really exist" thanks to the family register bullshit law, which essentially defines my wife as a single mom, mix in a little "Hi Monkey!" from the kids in the playground, add a dash of vodka, and you create a situation where harmony and willingness to integrate have a really hard time breathing. It might lead some people to temporarily 'snap' and write "freaking idiot" with a key on the hood of some obviously able bodied guy's car parked in a handicapped parking spot. Of course, be sure to write this in Korean if you feel the urge to follow through.
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| but I think [medical and background] should apply to ALL people in Korea teaching children. |
straw man. News flash: they do. Koreans in public schools have to have these checks. But of course, that doesn't mean you're going to stop all the pervs.
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| Wasn't the guy who molested a kid at the Paju English Village an F-series holder kyopo? Perhaps some of you F-ers agree with me, but a lot of the talk here seems to be gloating about how much they will benefit from the new laws (if they even come down at all.) |
I could look that up, but its late. However, I don't think the new laws will benefit me that much, since some of the major issues I face won't be affected.
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I also think that the double standard applied to foreign men marrying Korean women vis-a-vis foreign women marrying Korean men is sexist, racist and wrong. Women can become permanent residents, but men can't. Wouldn't men with F-2-1 visas be in a better position to argue against this law than E-2 holders? |
I get where you're going with this, being willing and able and trained to stand up and say no to the Kim. All in all however, this whole mess of a double standard has affected my wife more than I: she feels that her country has abandoned her. I'm not bragging when I say I'm a hard working, mostly law abiding, decent person; but the colour of my skin and country of origin make our lives more difficult here. Essentially, this dovetails into two problems for Korea: hell hath no fury like a woman scorned haha, so she passes this information along to all her friends and family. This creates a ground swell that will hopefully one day soon effect change. Second, it leads one to be more flexible in how one interprets (or obeys) law. This is to the host country's detriment, as it means they aren't getting 100% from those who make it home. I also think this nicely defines an immigrant's reaction in any country that has similar policies or atmosphere.
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| Frankly, shouldn't E-2 holders who stay here for more than 5 years be able to apply for permanent residency? I strongly believe that they should. If Korea wants to level the playing field and do business with Western, liberal democracies that admit thousands of Koreans as equals every year Korea should stop being so RACIST. |
How would you feel if Korea decided that for you to get the coveted F status, you also had to do public / military service? This is the rub. If that were a pre-requisite, I wouldn't be here, or would liquidate assets to buy my way out of it in some way, as some Koreans have done. I can see it: two years servitude in public school for a paltry wage. Uh, don't think so. I already do a great public service by being here and taking my job seriously. Am I a racist for saying this? Well, Korea has certainly put me in touch with that little chattering simian inside all of us. Makes me think sometimes the prime directive is indeed a good thing.
Should the laws reflect the same treatment Koreans enjoy in many foreign countries? Yes. |
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oh_daesu
Joined: 11 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: |
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^^ steroidmaximus, sums up how I would feel in your shoes were i in 'em, but I'm not and I won't pretend to even know the half of it. I'm not going to quote your entire post but I've reread it and it sounds like you're really holding back, biting your tongue... Some parts I really like but I'm not going to point out  hehe. No, nothing sounds racist, you just sound justifiably pissed-off.
Just stay on an even keel, keep smiling and never lock your keys in the car or lose them... you don't want to miss any legit opportunities  |
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mysteriousdeltarays
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Food Pyramid Bldg. 5F, 77 Sunset Strip, Alphaville
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Hey I'm an old guy, I've been here for a long time.
I'm old enough to believe in true romance. People laugh at at that these days. I'm glad people can can get married now.
I have a few problems though with some of the Kyobos that I have met. Man if there was a group that need criminal background checks!
The number of people coming over to avoid three strikes and you are out laws in America is amazing. |
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bellum99
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: don't need to know
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Steroidmaximus has it down pat. We suffer a lot of crap but it is different crap. E2 people have no idea what it is like:
1: Ever been standing with your wife and have the Tax Guy at the window ignore every question you ask and only talk to your wife(you are speaking Korean). We are often insulted this way. I am the invisible man.
2: Every freaking time a korean housewife meets my wife they ask can I tutor their kids. They never think about how insulting it would be for my kids to play with other kids. I don't ask them to clean my toilet even though they would do a good job.
3: Before F visas we had to tutor to make enough to live. There was no choice because you can't have a family on 1.8 million a month. I used to leave books at the houses and carry a bible around in case I got caught. If I was caught I could have been deported and what happen to my family...we suffered more than you can imagine.
---Most people complaining about the F visa people have no comprehension of what they are talking about. A large percentage of people come here for one or two years and go back home and that's fine for them. I think there should be strict conditions on their working here just like in other countries. Long term E2 residents should have another catagory of visa to allow a bit more freedom but the average E2 visa person has nothing to complain about. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Marry whoever you want, just please don't expect me to believe that people with F-visas are less likely to act out than E-2 holders. "Been here longer, blood, sweat and tears, I'm racially connected to Korea." It just doesn't hold up to logical reasoning. Those arguments are farcical.
sure. I wouldn't say I'm racially connected to Korea however, as I'm constantly reminded of the fact that I'm not, nor would I want that distinction. But since my Korean wife and 2 children rely on my financial support, rules should be relaxed so that I can better provide for them, plain and simple. You and Mr. Pink are correct: as a foreign male married to a Korean, the hoops were huge in that you had to work under an E2 visa at an E2 job and were unable to get the F visa. Add banking and housing problems i.e. I cannot get a loan from a bank since I'm a foreigner despite a solid credit history and tax statements, and my wife cannot since she doesn't have a paying job. Throw in a little "you don't really exist" thanks to the family register *beep* law, which essentially defines my wife as a single mom, mix in a little "Hi Monkey!" from the kids in the playground, add a dash of vodka, and you create a situation where harmony and willingness to integrate have a really hard time breathing. It might lead some people to temporarily 'snap' and write "freaking idiot" with a key on the hood of some obviously able bodied guy's car parked in a handicapped parking spot. Of course, be sure to write this in Korean if you feel the urge to follow through. |
Why should rules be relaxed just because you decided to get married and have kids? While Korea DOES need more babies, I thought this was about protecting other people's kids, not about funding yours.
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but I think [medical and background] should apply to ALL people in Korea teaching children.
straw man. News flash: they do. Koreans in public schools have to have these checks. But of course, that doesn't mean you're going to stop all the pervs. |
I can believe that full-time teachers in public schools have criminal record checks done, but every hagwon "teacher?" Even the part-timers? The 'minders?' The bus drivers? No way. They aren't checked.
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Wasn't the guy who molested a kid at the Paju English Village an F-series holder kyopo? Perhaps some of you F-ers agree with me, but a lot of the talk here seems to be gloating about how much they will benefit from the new laws (if they even come down at all.)
I could look that up, but its late. However, I don't think the new laws will benefit me that much, since some of the major issues I face won't be affected. |
Sure. You don't have to campaign if you don't want to.
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Quote:
I also think that the double standard applied to foreign men marrying Korean women vis-a-vis foreign women marrying Korean men is sexist, racist and wrong. Women can become permanent residents, but men can't. Wouldn't men with F-2-1 visas be in a better position to argue against this law than E-2 holders?
I get where you're going with this, being willing and able and trained to stand up and say no to the Kim. All in all however, this whole mess of a double standard has affected my wife more than I: she feels that her country has abandoned her. I'm not bragging when I say I'm a hard working, mostly law abiding, decent person; but the colour of my skin and country of origin make our lives more difficult here. Essentially, this dovetails into two problems for Korea: hell hath no fury like a woman scorned haha, so she passes this information along to all her friends and family. This creates a ground swell that will hopefully one day soon effect change. Second, it leads one to be more flexible in how one interprets (or obeys) law. This is to the host country's detriment, as it means they aren't getting 100% from those who make it home. I also think this nicely defines an immigrant's reaction in any country that has similar policies or atmosphere. |
Sure, she feels abandoned by her own country. That's sad, I agree. But frankly, this shouldn't be a surprise. Even if she had married a Korean, she would have been taken off her hojok and put on the man's. Korea sees married women as property of the husband. In truth, she shouldn't be surprised. Her schooling and upbringing would have taught her quite enough about racial purity and her sacred duty to continue the homogenous, Korea bloodline. She knew what she was doing when she married outside the clan. It has resulted in ambiguities for the both of you. That's interesting, and a little bit tragic in a day and age when Korea wants to reach 'the first rank of countries.'
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Quote:
Frankly, shouldn't E-2 holders who stay here for more than 5 years be able to apply for permanent residency? I strongly believe that they should. If Korea wants to level the playing field and do business with Western, liberal democracies that admit thousands of Koreans as equals every year Korea should stop being so RACIST.
How would you feel if Korea decided that for you to get the coveted F status, you also had to do public / military service? This is the rub. If that were a pre-requisite, I wouldn't be here, or would liquidate assets to buy my way out of it in some way, as some Koreans have done. I can see it: two years servitude in public school for a paltry wage. Uh, don't think so. I already do a great public service by being here and taking my job seriously. Am I a racist for saying this? Well, Korea has certainly put me in touch with that little chattering simian inside all of us. Makes me think sometimes the prime directive is indeed a good thing.
Should the laws reflect the same treatment Koreans enjoy in many foreign countries? Yes. |
Ooh. Good point. You've obviously thought about this. Military service is a sticking point. Well, let's ask the North Koreans how they would feel about foreigners becoming NORTH Korean citizens. Shades of their thinking aren't so hard to see in South Korea.
bellum99:
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| Steroidmaximus has it down pat. We suffer a lot of crap but it is different crap. E2 people have no idea what it is like: |
I've been here 7 years. I have an idea what it's like.
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| 1: Ever been standing with your wife and have the Tax Guy at the window ignore every question you ask and only talk to your wife(you are speaking Korean). We are often insulted this way. I am the invisible man. |
Ever tried to have something installed and been asked to put a Korean on the line because the person I'm talking to insists on only speaking Korean to a Korean, even though they've had 12 years of English lessons? Is it like that?
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| 2: Every freaking time a korean housewife meets my wife they ask can I tutor their kids. They never think about how insulting it would be for my kids to play with other kids. I don't ask them to clean my toilet even though they would do a good job. |
People ask me to tutor their friends and their kids all the time. Nothing new there.
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| 3: Before F visas we had to tutor to make enough to live. There was no choice because you can't have a family on 1.8 million a month. I used to leave books at the houses and carry a bible around in case I got caught. If I was caught I could have been deported and what happen to my family...we suffered more than you can imagine. |
You wouldn't have been deported. You're exaggerating.
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| ---Most people complaining about the F visa people have no comprehension of what they are talking about. A large percentage of people come here for one or two years and go back home and that's fine for them. I think there should be strict conditions on their working here just like in other countries. Long term E2 residents should have another catagory of visa to allow a bit more freedom but the average E2 visa person has nothing to complain about. |
I don't actually disagree with the new laws, but that's easy for me to say because they won't affect me. |
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steroidmaximus
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Why should rules be relaxed just because you decided to get married and have kids? While Korea DOES need more babies, I thought this was about protecting other people's kids, not about funding yours.
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You should seperate the E2 and the F Visa arguments since they really are two separate issues. I can understand why you're pissed, if it was me I'd be livid: 7 years in, still have to go through the same old crap all the time. Still, you can't compare my situation to yours since obviously I have more responsibilities than you. This is not me being sanctimonious, it's simply a statement of fact. The F visa regs are to make meeting my responsibilities easier, and in fact I think F series visa holders should get more breaks due to the unique contribution we make to this country. BTW, I've also had 2 medical checks for jobs and had to submit a background check as well. Did I mind? No, since I understand the rationale behind it. As for every E2 having to jump through those stupid hoops, I'm with you in that Koreans working with kids should also go through the same. Apply the laws equally. And sure, a special class of F visa for people like yourself is a good idea, i.e. exempting you from submitting background checks every year and going back to your home country to renew your visa. That's just retarded.
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Sure, she feels abandoned by her own country. That's sad, I agree. But frankly, this shouldn't be a surprise. Even if she had married a Korean, she would have been taken off her hojok and put on the man's. Korea sees married women as property of the husband. In truth, she shouldn't be surprised. Her schooling and upbringing would have taught her quite enough about racial purity and her sacred duty to continue the homogenous, Korea bloodline. She knew what she was doing when she married outside the clan. It has resulted in ambiguities for the both of you. That's interesting, and a little bit tragic in a day and age when Korea wants to reach 'the first rank of countries.'
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Tis. But with the rise in women's rights in Korea, these issues faced by Korean women and immigrant wives IS getting a lot of press and study, although the amount of documentation created on the latter far exceeds the former. Why? Because it affects Korean men directly, while the women are cast aside. That makes the blood boil far more than your whinging about unfair E2 regs, although both issues are mired in bullsiht.
Yeah yeah, me thinks lots har har. The point is I can understand reserving some priviledges for Koreans, but the extent that foreigners are systematically excluded from meaningfully participating in Korean society is beyond reasonable. Is it the mark of an advanced civilization? No. It's tribal mentality, pure and simple, and will hinder Korea's development in the long run. But it's fine, since they'll turn around and blame us for that too. This is an element of the Korean psyche that irks me to no end: the refusal to accept personal responsibility for mistakes or wrong doing. The situation in education was created by Koreans, and to cover this up they blame outsiders punish them. Whatever.
You need to come down a few notches and realistically look at the situation instead of merely mocking those who have what you perceive as an unfair advantage. Our situations are not the same. Don't take your frustrations out on us, since in most cases (some in this thread excluded) we understand your pain and sympathize.
And for those of you dancing with malicious glee over your 'advantages' with an F visa, get over yourselves and stop taunting the lower primates. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: |
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SM,
I agree with what you've said about the difficulties of having an F series visa (although you have obviously a lot more experience then I do).
Personally I think it's a matter of a very small number of people on this board "gloating" about their F status visas which make the rest of us look bad.
The recent backlash against F series visas is getting rediculous though. I have said this before (and have others), it's not the fault of those who have F series visas that the E-2 regulations have changed, it's the Korean Government. Stop blaming us. |
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bellum99
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: don't need to know
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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The final thing is that this is Korea and they will do what is best for Korea. Immigration is right about a few things:
1: We need drugs tests..obviously, since teachers are caught with drugs all the time.
2: We need background and criminal checks since we work with children and can leave at anytime. Most E2 visa people can disappear ,at a moments notice, back to their home countries and it is very hard to drag them back to face charges.
3: There must be strict rules about what work is allowed. The rules must be clear and enforced. It is not a right to work in Korea.
4: F2-1 and F5 people are married to Koreans and the Koreans have a right to expect their spouse to live and support the family in Korea. People think that freedoms are given to the Western person because they married a Korean...NO, they are given to the western person because the Korean spouse needs them to have those freedoms. It is about what is best for the Korean spouse.
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I very much doubt that any E2 visa person understands the special stress that Western spouses feel living in Korea. We are culturally expected to be able to do what the Korean spouse does and it is hard. It is not like hooking up internet and the guy doesn't understand you...it is pathetic to even claim this is the same. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| What's pathetic is getting married and then whining about it. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
| What's pathetic is getting married and then whining about it. |
Guess you have never been married 
This isn't something Korea specific. Al Bundy comes to mind when I think of some general attitudes Americans have towards marriage. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| How do you know the boss is lying...his lips are moving and you can smell Kimchi. |
Bellum, Bellum. Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I don't actually know where on Earth the idea for this thread came about. What happened that F visa people are getting bashed?
Also, this is the Hermit Kingdom and I am sure there are growing pains.
We'll be alright.
To be completely honest I got more pain in NZ. Now, if you want to find some liars, you'd do well to turn over a few rocks there, too. |
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yashi
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Very amusing and enlightening thread.
A few simple questions for all who claim priviledges or complain about the lack of them:
Are you immigrants? Do you intend to immigrate to Korea? Until you embrace Korean society and truly become an actual citizen, do you need to argue over the laws and regulations the government passes? Do you expect visitors to your home country to act according to the laws and regulations of your native land? On arrival, did you really anticipate anything more than a symbiotic relationship? Do you choose to live in Korea? etc.
I often find myself lambasting Korea for reasons I perceive to be wrong about the culture, environment, ethics, and especially, the perception of me. How does the perception Koreans have of me compare to the one that the general population of my own country holds towards aliens who speak little of the native language? Is there a hierarchy imposed on those aliens by themselves or my government?
To all ABCDEF - 12345 visa holders, I can only suggest to fill a large bowl with water and place it in the middle of an empty room. Then look into the water and stare deep down into that reflection. If you can't find anything, try turning off the lights and lighting some candles around the bowl and/or add some ink to the water. How does that perception of yourself differ from the one others have of you?
When Korean immigration looks at the face in the water, one major difference it sees between an E and an F is that of someone who is either an employee or a family member. How highly does Korea value family? How about you?
F visa holders: give your spouse/parents/relatives a nice hug and thank them for the risks they are taking on your account.
E visa holders: give your local education ministry/director/boss a nice hug and thank them for the risks they are taking for you. |
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