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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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This is getting ridiculous...
Getting Hosed By Homeland Security
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| Case in point: drawing from a very apt analogy of Fahrenheit 451 in which firemen went looking for questionable material (like the unacceptable notion of books that make you think) from the citizens to keep them complacent and happy, comes the news that the Department of Homeland Security has �deputized� the FDNY with the ability to report on citizens that may express opinions or have in their possession books that sound �anti-American.� A handy ally for DHS, as fire departments |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| keane wrote: |
This is getting ridiculous...
Getting Hosed By Homeland Security
| Quote: |
| Case in point: drawing from a very apt analogy of Fahrenheit 451 in which firemen went looking for questionable material (like the unacceptable notion of books that make you think) from the citizens to keep them complacent and happy, comes the news that the Department of Homeland Security has �deputized� the FDNY with the ability to report on citizens that may express opinions or have in their possession books that sound �anti-American.� A handy ally for DHS, as fire departments |
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From the AP:
When going to private residences, for example, they are told to be alert for a person who is hostile, uncooperative or expressing hate or discontent with the United States; unusual chemicals or other materials that seem out of place; ammunition, firearms or weapons boxes; surveillance equipment; still and video cameras; night-vision goggles; maps, photos, blueprints; police manuals, training manuals, flight manuals; and little or no furniture other than a bed or mattress.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gek2oSZ_67sh2ukVvXaCGCXzpypwD8T3IFL81
Now I think if a FF spots this stuff, he'd probably report it anyway. Now people are drawing conclusions as to what the FF are being trained to look for. Who is to say it's not going the other way. "Okay just because they're Bush hating hippies, you don't have to call in a terrorist report. It's a waste of our resources to investigate 80% of the population. However, if you notice lots of fire arms and night vision goggles and an obvious hate for America, then you should call it in." |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Now I think if a FF spots this stuff, he'd probably report it anyway. Now people are drawing conclusions as to what the FF are being trained to look for. Who is to say it's not going the other way. "Okay just because they're Bush hating hippies, you don't have to call in a terrorist report. It's a waste of our resources to investigate 80% of the population. However, if you notice lots of fire arms and night vision goggles and an obvious hate for America, then you should call it in." |
Umm... the last seven years?
For chrissake... can't you ever just have a conversation and leave the devil's advocate bullshit melting away the back of your own brain? Need you inflict it on the rest of us?
Who's to say.... criminy... nothing but lying and deciet and spying and renditions for seven years, and he asks who's to say it isn't all benign, gentle, loving governmental snooping.... |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| keane wrote: |
For chrissake... can't you ever just have a conversation and leave the devil's advocate *beep* melting away the back of your own brain? Need you inflict it on the rest of us?
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My conversations always involve considering the alternative. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
For chrissake... can't you ever just have a conversation and leave the devil's advocate *beep* melting away the back of your own brain? Need you inflict it on the rest of us?
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My conversations always involve considering the alternative. |
Considering the alternative and playing Devil's Advocate are NOT the same. All intelligent people attempting objectivity do the former. The latter is used as a tool of inquiry or to annoy. You too often use it dishonestly, i.e., you don't identify yourself as taking on the Advocate role. This intentional action confuses the discussion as we naturally and necessarily react differently to a view stated as a view vs. a point taken as a Devil's Advocate. You would do well to identify these differences in your various posts. Otherwise, you are essentially trolling. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| keane wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
For chrissake... can't you ever just have a conversation and leave the devil's advocate *beep* melting away the back of your own brain? Need you inflict it on the rest of us?
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My conversations always involve considering the alternative. |
Considering the alternative and playing Devil's Advocate are NOT the same. All intelligent people attempting objectivity do the former. The latter is used as a tool of inquiry or to annoy. You too often use it dishonestly, i.e., you don't identify yourself as taking on the Advocate role. This intentional action confuses the discussion as we naturally and necessarily react differently to a view stated as a view vs. a point taken as a Devil's Advocate. You would do well to identify these differences in your various posts. Otherwise, you are essentially trolling. |
So the catholic church uses the devil's advocate process to annoy? Oh well. I don't answer to you. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| keane wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
For chrissake... can't you ever just have a conversation and leave the devil's advocate *beep* melting away the back of your own brain? Need you inflict it on the rest of us?
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My conversations always involve considering the alternative. |
Considering the alternative and playing Devil's Advocate are NOT the same. All intelligent people attempting objectivity do the former. The latter is used as a tool of inquiry or to annoy. You too often use it dishonestly, i.e., you don't identify yourself as taking on the Advocate role. This intentional action confuses the discussion as we naturally and necessarily react differently to a view stated as a view vs. a point taken as a Devil's Advocate. You would do well to identify these differences in your various posts. Otherwise, you are essentially trolling. |
Keane,
I think MM2's intention is to challenge you to think critically. When you�re replying you should think critically about his argument as well as yours.
You should think about his position and his argument. You�ve got full right to your beliefs and it's assumed that you've got perfectly good reason to come to your conclusions. However, we have got our beliefs, and we feel good reasons for our beliefs.
You should try and avoid needless argumentum ad hominem and childish pejoratives. Though, yes, nobody is perfect. Therefore I realize that we, including myself, should all do our best to present our arguments in a thoughtful and respectful manner.
Regards |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| keane wrote: |
For chrissake... can't you ever just have a conversation and leave the devil's advocate *beep* melting away the back of your own brain? Need you inflict it on the rest of us?
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My conversations always involve considering the alternative. |
Considering the alternative and playing Devil's Advocate are NOT the same. All intelligent people attempting objectivity do the former. The latter is used as a tool of inquiry or to annoy. You too often use it dishonestly, i.e., you don't identify yourself as taking on the Advocate role. This intentional action confuses the discussion as we naturally and necessarily react differently to a view stated as a view vs. a point taken as a Devil's Advocate. You would do well to identify these differences in your various posts. Otherwise, you are essentially trolling. |
Keane,
I think MM2's intention is to challenge you to think critically. When you�re replying you should think critically about his argument as well as yours.
You should think about his position and his argument. You�ve got full right to your beliefs and it's assumed that you've got perfectly good reason to come to your conclusions. However, we have got our beliefs, and we feel good reasons for our beliefs.
You should try and avoid needless argumentum ad hominem and childish pejoratives. Though, yes, nobody is perfect. Therefore I realize that we, including myself, should all do our best to present our arguments in a thoughtful and respectful manner.
Regards |
Talk down to yourself, friend. We have MM2 who has stated that he enters threads solely to take the DA position. We have you saying for him he always speaks directly his views:
| Quote: |
| However, we have got our beliefs, and we feel good reasons for our beliefs. |
This does not compute, Herr Pluto.
Secondly, my statements and posts always reflect well-rounded thought. (Let us take the Peak Oil thread in which I have worked to educate those who will listen about the dangers of resource depletion. I have looked at data from a vast number of sources, looked at perspectives from a vast number of sources and looked at the mitigating factors that the "opposition" - excuse me while I snicker - themselves should be presenting instead of crapping themselves making personal attacks. ) Time and again I show folks like you to be... amateurs, as above. You really should not speak to me unless far better prepared. I WILL make you look stupid. As above.
Now, the topics, my friend, are 1. the use of the FDNY to snoop and 2. the use of the Devil's Advocate stance. 1 is abhorrent and 2 is mis-used if not identified as such. The person in question, MM2, rarely identifies (never?) that he is in such a stance.
BTW, the topic IS NOT who is listening to whom or whether they are being objective. So sad for you!
PS: If I thought it were possible to have polite discussions with the neo-cons/cons/whatever the hell you whackos call yourselves, I would take to it in a heartbeat. See my first 10 days or so of posting on these forums.
But you are a bunch of snide, rude, childish, etc., etc. whatevers. I'd hate to try to count the number of posts/threads I've made only to be personally attacked by your ilk. As in THIS thread. I made a legitimate observation of MM2's behavior. You had no reason to speak, yet you did. You were completely wrong in what you said, yet you said it. You couldn't even track the subject correctly, yet you spoke to me patronizingly.
Get over yourself, and quit that most disgusting of charades: pretending at polite discourse. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess we disagree about the value of the devil's advocate. I remember back in grad school it was considered the mark of a good professor if he/she could introduce a theory without revealing his personal bias towards or against said theory. (and no thats not taking the devil's advocate but...) In addition when a student raised an argument it was the instructors job to take the opposite side even when he agreed with the student. Its an exercise that keeps people intellectually honest, and sometimes you might actually outsmart yourself and find your original beliefs were flawed. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: FDNY: Spies with hoses. |
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| keane wrote: |
All intelligent people attempting objectivity do the former. |
Maybe that explains why you don't. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think the most sinister aspect of this is the "anti-american" from the OP or an "obvious hate for America" from MM2.
Those sound like code words for "opponents of the current regime". |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kotakji wrote: |
| I guess we disagree about the value of the devil's advocate. I remember back in grad school it was considered the mark of a good professor if he/she could introduce a theory without revealing his personal bias towards or against said theory. (and no thats not taking the devil's advocate but...) In addition when a student raised an argument it was the instructors job to take the opposite side even when he agreed with the student. Its an exercise that keeps people intellectually honest, and sometimes you might actually outsmart yourself and find your original beliefs were flawed. |
I'll have to second this and say I wish there were a lot less ad hominem attacks and childish name-calling all around, and more response to substance. It seems to be epidemic on Dave's and turns a lot of people off. I even remember getting torn a new one in a grammar discussion on the job forum because someone disagreed with me!
To get this back on topic, I don't like the idea of anyone being deputized to spy on their fellow citizens.
CAUTION: IRONY WARNING - Do not read if you are offended by or unable to comprehend irony. Don't flame me.
And anyone who disagrees with me or has a different opinion is a stupid, retarded, motherless Neanderthal who smells like poo. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| kotakji wrote: |
| I guess we disagree about the value of the devil's advocate. I remember back in grad school it was considered the mark of a good professor if he/she could introduce a theory without revealing his personal bias towards or against said theory. (and no thats not taking the devil's advocate but...) In addition when a student raised an argument it was the instructors job to take the opposite side even when he agreed with the student. Its an exercise that keeps people intellectually honest, and sometimes you might actually outsmart yourself and find your original beliefs were flawed. |
I have at no time indicated there is a problem with the DA position. I said clearly it is used to further conversations/debates. When used as MM2 uses it at times, it is intended to irritate or (insert your own word here). There is no reason NOT to identify you are taking the position, so why not do so? IT can be misleading not to. And you are correct in that your analogy doesn't work. The professor is *assumed* to take that stance and it is quite obvious that they are. However, this is not a classroom, it is a message board, which makes it a "conversation." In that case, taking the Devil's Advocate stance should be clear, and if there is a chance of ambiguity, it should be stated clearly. Doing so will help ensure clear communication and avoid discussions getting hung up on assumptions needlessly. |
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keane
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| I'll have to second this and say I wish there were a lot less ad hominem attacks and childish name-calling all around, and more response to substance. It seems to be epidemic on Dave's and turns a lot of people off. I even remember getting torn a new one in a grammar discussion on the job forum because someone disagreed with me! |
See above. You both seem to have missed an "or" in my response.
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| To get this back on topic, I don't like the idea of anyone being deputized to spy on their fellow citizens. |
(Thank you for returning to topic.)
Exactly. This is a slippery slope. Not only are there many reasons why someone might have such materials, i.e. possibly benign ones, but this is nothing but an end around on search and seizure. The concept of search and seizure lies on the bedrock of probable cause. They are removing probable cause from the equation.
That is a huge mistake. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Wow, I'm starting to come around. All you liberal fearmongers and turning me to your point of view. Uh oh. |
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