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Teacher guilty in 'Muhammad' teddy bear case
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemcgarrett wrote:
Now the Muslim faithful are crowding the streets of Khartoum demanding her death.

Ya know, it's more sordid than a Harold Pinter nightmare or a scene cut from Monty Python's Life of Brian and yet seems to have no limit. Anyone who insists that the Muslim world isn't in a bad way is dissembling or delusional.

And let's not forget the three lovely Iraqi men who poured gasoline over that young boy's head and then lit in on fire just because his parents happened to be from another religious sect.



This has to do more with cultural backwardness. If this happened in another Arab country the results might not have been the same. If she was a teacher of a foreign school in Syria and that was said, somebody might be upset with her and the bear would get a change of name, but that would be the end of it. The government wouldn't want to jail a foreigner and have relations messed up over that. Also, a good percentage of the Sudanese population are embarassed over this. Of course, you do have the fanatics who want her killed and such. These are people who often can't read and write properly, and Sudan is one of the most backward Arab speaking countries that exists and in the world. It doesn't mean all Sudanese people are this or that, but obviously there is way too much fanatacism in that country otherwise the woman wouldn't be in jail.

As far as that tragedy of the boy being doused with fuel it is not a religious form of behaviour among Muslims. For example, there was some Iraqi on TV from Jordan who was tortured. He was a Sabean.
He was tortured for that reason by some sectarian people in Iraq.
The Quran, from what I know, mentions the Sabean sect in a favourable light. They are quite ancient, and nothing is ever said that puts them in an unfavourable light in the Muslim religion, so those people were simply being hateful.

The Muslim world is full of anger and angry people and this board has some pretty angry people as well.....
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other perspectives from the BBC website.

Quote:
I'm a Sudanese and a Muslim myself but I find no reason why this innocent lady is being humiliated and lied against saying that she insulted Islam. My own brother studies in the same school in which the teacher was teaching and it was not her to choose the name, it was a boy whose name was Mohamed. He decide that the doll be named after him. If the name of Mohamed should not be called anyhow then stop people from calling their names Mohamed. We need the teacher back. Rotto, Khartoum, Sudan
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And we can contrast that with:






Quote:


Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear �Muhammad.�
In response to the demonstration, teacher Gillian Gibbons was moved from the women�s prison near Khartoum to a secret location for her safety, her lawyer said.

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gibbons, who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

They massed in central Martyrs Square outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed. They did not try to stop the rally, which lasted about an hour.

�Shame, shame on the U.K.,� protesters chanted.


I thought the cartoon jihad was retarded. Now the teddy bear jihad. What could possibly be next? Where does it end?
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, it needs to be said that the genocide going on in their country nor the deadly civil war in the south brought those clowns into the street but a non-muslim allowing a muslim kid to name a plush animal after himself does. The values are an absolute mess and their religion is the #1 cause.

Time for the platitudes to end.


Last edited by thepeel on Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And then contrast it again with some of this:

I've been a student at the Unity High School for the last seven years. I am really worried about Miss Gillian. I don't know her because she teaches the younger schoolchildren, but I always see her playing with the kids and making them feel happy. She seems to be a wonderful teacher. I am a Muslim but I am not offended by what she did. She had no idea that it is forbidden. She should be freed.
Razan, Khartoum, Sudan

I believe this was a misunderstanding and the authorities are sensitive in light of the recent cartoon fiasco in Europe. I think it will be resolved and Miss Gibbons will eventually be cleared and allowed to go home. But it highlights how sensitive and defensive people have become. I pray it is all resolved soon and Ms Gibbions is allowed home.
Sultanah, Khartoum, Sudan

To feel offended by what the teacher did is impossible. She should not be punished for something like that. I believe that the teacher is in her right mind and is aware that she is in an Islamic country. I am sure she knows what can create religious tension and she wouldn't have done such a thing on purpose. The poor lady is being accused of a sin she did not commit. I hope and pray that the UK government will take this seriously and intervene with vigour before things get out of hand. Why aren't Muslim brothers taking more kindly to such things? Sanity my people!
Salma Aki, Khartoum Sudan

I was at the Unity High School when the event took place. I am a student there. I think it was a misunderstanding. I feel sorry for the teacher, sadly she lacked common sense. I am supporting Miss Gillian and I hope she can be free soon.
Mohamed Ahmed Osman, Khartoum, Sudan

I'm a Muslim and I find it ridiculous that such a harmless incident could incite such hatred. Where is the common sense? There are people called Muhammad who behave worse than animals and yet we have to imprison a teacher for choosing this name for a teddy bear. Simply outrageous.
Faruq, Singapore

From BBCArabic.com: Muhammad is a very common name for Muslims. If we are to punish this teacher for calling a teddy bear Mohammad, then we should punish criminals for being called Mohammad. The truth is that these failed regimes want to keep people busy with these trivial matters. Sudan has enough problems already. How would Sudan feel if European countries deported Sudanese citizens as a response to this action?
Samer Hassan

I am a Muslim, and I must say that the interpretation of the rules has gone too far. I can only expect that the teacher wanted to respect the children's honour of the Prophet by naming the teddy bear after him. It is a popular name. Every other boy in Malaysia has Muhammad as part of his name. I don't think that she intentionally tried to offend the Prophet. Children have a tendency to name favourite objects with their favourite names and, if anything, parents should feel rather proud that their children find the name Muhammad so dear to them. This ridiculous interpretation of Islamic rules should be stopped.
Syazwina Saw, Malaysia

From BBCArabic.com: My name is Mohammed. Should my parents be tried for insulting Islam?
Mohammed

There are a lot of muslims who feel this way, but they don't make the news. Your mob of angry third world illiterate peasants are far more sexy.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thepeel wrote:
Also, it needs to be said that the genocide going on in their country nor the deadly civil war in the south brought those clowns into the street but a non-muslim allowing a muslim kid to name a plush animal after himself does. The values are an absolute mess and their religion is the #1 cause.

Time for the platitudes to end.

From BBCArabic.com: Muhammad is a very common name for Muslims. If we are to punish this teacher for calling a teddy bear Mohammad, then we should punish criminals for being called Mohammad. The truth is that these failed regimes want to keep people busy with these trivial matters. Sudan has enough problems already. How would Sudan feel if European countries deported Sudanese citizens as a response to this action?
Samer Hassan

It's not so much about being a muslim country as it is about vicious politics.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More sexy and more representative of the world's muslims, most of whom are mobs of illiterate third world peasants. And they are illiterate third world peasants because their civilization is a failure.

Added to their total failure, their religion has as a central concept superiority to other religions (religion 3.0, as Tom Friedman says) which in the face of their abject failure to accomplish anything of substance leads to incidents such as the OP. This is just going to continue on and on and on and on until something gives. Pretending like a larger pattern doesn't exist is just plain dumb.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big_Bird wrote:
thepeel wrote:
Also, it needs to be said that the genocide going on in their country nor the deadly civil war in the south brought those clowns into the street but a non-muslim allowing a muslim kid to name a plush animal after himself does. The values are an absolute mess and their religion is the #1 cause.

Time for the platitudes to end.

From BBCArabic.com: Muhammad is a very common name for Muslims. If we are to punish this teacher for calling a teddy bear Mohammad, then we should punish criminals for being called Mohammad. The truth is that these failed regimes want to keep people busy with these trivial matters. Sudan has enough problems already. How would Sudan feel if European countries deported Sudanese citizens as a response to this action?
Samer Hassan

It's not so much about being a muslim country as it is about vicious politics.


Sure, it is illiteracy, politics, poverty, etc. Anything but the real cause. Their religion.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thepeel wrote:
Big_Bird wrote:
thepeel wrote:
Also, it needs to be said that the genocide going on in their country nor the deadly civil war in the south brought those clowns into the street but a non-muslim allowing a muslim kid to name a plush animal after himself does. The values are an absolute mess and their religion is the #1 cause.

Time for the platitudes to end.

From BBCArabic.com: Muhammad is a very common name for Muslims. If we are to punish this teacher for calling a teddy bear Mohammad, then we should punish criminals for being called Mohammad. The truth is that these failed regimes want to keep people busy with these trivial matters. Sudan has enough problems already. How would Sudan feel if European countries deported Sudanese citizens as a response to this action?
Samer Hassan

It's not so much about being a muslim country as it is about vicious politics.


Sure, it is illiteracy, politics, poverty, etc. Anything but the real cause. Their religion.


Religion is just one piece of the equation. Muslims I know think this incident is crazy. Your problem is you obsess on Islam, and ignore the full political context. You rant hysterically about Islam on these forums, demanding that we all accept the most fundamental interpretation of Islam as the only valid one. You want us to believe all muslims take every verse of the Koran literally, when in fact the majority do not (just as most Christians do not with regard to the Bible). Your interpretation of the KOran is on a par with that of the Taliban.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thepeel wrote:
More sexy and more representative of the world's muslims, most of whom are mobs of illiterate third world peasants. And they are illiterate third world peasants because their civilization is a failure.

Added to their total failure, their religion has as a central concept superiority to other religions (religion 3.0, as Tom Friedman says) which in the face of their abject failure to accomplish anything of substance leads to incidents such as the OP. This is just going to continue on and on and on and on until something gives. Pretending like a larger pattern doesn't exist is just plain dumb.


I think you're suggesting that Sudan is a failed civilisation because of Islam. What about other failed civilisations across the African continent? Can we blame their failure on Christianity or Animism? There are many factors behind these 'failures' - yet you desire to put all blame on religion.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have your head in the sand if you do not see the larger picture of "insulting islam" causing violence around the world.

The koran is hate literature and it is absolutely impossible for any other interpretation to be made. At least 50% of all passages contain calls to violence or satisfaction about violence against non-believers. If a nation of kids read that crap don't be surprised when the act in the way their book directly commands. Also don't be surprised when they bathe in their violent ignorance. Pretending that their religion has nothing to do with their religious problems will never help this situation.
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thepeel wrote:
You have your head in the sand if you do not see the larger picture of "insulting islam" causing violence around the world.

The koran is hate literature and it is absolutely impossible for any other interpretation to be made. At least 50% of all passages contain calls to violence or satisfaction about violence against non-believers. If a nation of kids read that crap don't be surprised when the act in the way their book directly commands. Also don't be surprised when they bathe in their violent ignorance. Pretending that their religion has nothing to do with their religious problems will never help this situation.


No, it's you who are unable to grasp the bigger picture. It's like English football fans. Most of them are benign and well behaved. Just a few ugly incidents by a minority of ugly supporters make huge headlines. It's the same with regard to the muslim world. There are 1.5 billion muslims. Most of them are quietly getting on with their lives, and are not filled with hatred for oth�r denominations. The minority of ugly and violent muslims get huge press and loom large in the Western mind. But when you put it back in context, it's not the apocalypse that you hysterically warn of us with such regularity on this forum.
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who says anything about the apocalypse? I think they will likely kill each other off long before they threaten the West. Though, some Western European states will likely submit in my lifetime. We need failures to point to as examples of what not to do, so it is ok. But, the right-wing backlash to them is brewing in Europe and Oz. That isn't going to be pretty.

Mostly, I'd like the multiculties to admit a few things about the nature of islam. Canada and the United States will be fine.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros:

Thanks for the detalied reply. I'm pretty tired tonight after a long weekend of correcting papers, but I would like to address a couple of points quickly...

Quote:
Quote:
For example, Justice McLachlin of the Canadian Supreme Court identified the following in R. v. Keegstra, a 1990 case on hate speech:

a) Free speech promotes "The free flow of ideas essential to political democracy and democratic institutions" and limits the ability of the state to subvert other rights and freedoms

b) It promotes a marketplace of ideas, which includes, but is not limited to, the search for truth

c) It is intrinsically valuable as part of the self-actualisation of speakers and listeners

d) It is justified by the dangers for good government of allowing its suppression.


The purpose of free speech is to promote better governance and a free exchange of ideas. It is emphatically not designed to protect recklessly and deliberately offensive speech.


You can count me as someone who is unimpressed by Canada's hate laws(as applied in the Keegstra case). I think the existence of such laws in Canada and Europe is another reason for us to be less than righteous in our critiques of free speech elsewhere in the world. For Christ sake, I've seen debates on Dave's about whether or not the rape of Nanking happened, but if you say something similar in Germany about the holocaust, you get locked up? Please.

And no, I'm not saying the holocaust-deniers are right, just that I don't see why denying one particular historical incident should be designated with the same out-of-bounds status once accorded to blasphmeny.

Quote:
The purpose of free speech is to promote better governance and a free exchange of ideas. It is emphatically not designed to protect recklessly and deliberately offensive speech.


Yes, but who is to say that "reckless and deliberately offensive speech" isn't part of "the free exchange of ideas" or, phrased another way, where does TFEOI end and RADOS begin?

True, many Dutch people would be offended to hear the Queen called a Nazi by someone trying to be deliberately offensive. By the same token, some feminists might be offended to hear an abortion-provider called a "baby killer", but I'm sure we'd both agree that the claim that abortion is murder is an integral part of the debate surrounding the procedure, and that if you start locking people up for saying that, you've pretty much shut down one entire side of the argument. And that's just one example. Hey Hey LBJ How Many Kids Did You Kill Today probably sounded pretty reckless and deliberately offensive to some people at the time. Others thought of it as piercing moral criticism.

Quote:
(If this incident had happened in America, and someone was screaming 'Osama Bin Laden is the greatest!' while stomping on an American flag, the result would have been different. The cops probably would have stomped on him and/or charged him with assault and public intoxication, and then thrown him in jail, telling all the other inmates what he had been doing.)


Well I gotta say, if that is how the state's representatives would respond in the USA, then I'm REALLY questioning the basis for any proclaimed democratic superiority over the Muslim world. I'm assuming that by "stomped on him" you mean "beat him up"? And that the reason for informing the other prisoners of his crime would be so that they could inflict unregulated violence upon him? That's far beyond anything that's being done to the schoolteacher in Sudan.

And yeah, I get that the flag-burning Osama groupie was deliberately trying to provoke outrage, but still. When you start beating the crap out of people for expressing an opinion, you've crossed a line pure and simple. At that point, how provocative the speech was is really neither here nor there.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:


And yeah, I get that the flag-burning Osama groupie was deliberately trying to provoke outrage, but still. When you start beating the crap out of people for expressing an opinion, you've crossed a line pure and simple. At that point, how provocative the speech was is really neither here nor there.


Precisely my point. The Dutch policemen, while no doubt directly challenged and offended, did not beat the man up. Unimpressed, they hauled him in front of a judge. That was about the best outcome possible.
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