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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Now if he truly does accept the results and doesn't try to pull any BS, then I will have to give him credit.
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Why? The coward couldn't even reach for the diadem in the end. Maybe, like Caesar, his love for himself and popularity consumed him so much that he couldn't bear to live without the legitimacy of an elected throne.
But a real Washington or Bolivar never would have gone so far as to propose this in the first place:
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_Lengthening presidential terms from six to seven years. Eliminating terms limits to allow the president to run for re-election indefinitely.
_ Redrawing the country's political map and allowing the president to handpick provincial and municipal leaders.
_ Allowing the president to declare a state of emergency for an unlimited period, as long as "the causes that motivated it remain."
_ Prohibiting large land estates. Allowing the state to provisionally occupy property slated for expropriation before a court has ruled.
_ Prohibiting foreign funding for "associations with political aims." Critics warn this could be used to strangle human rights groups.
_ Creates three new classes of communal property, in addition to private and state property.
_ Establishing a socio-economic system based on "socialist, anti-imperialist principles."
_ Granting the president control over the Central Bank, which previously had autonomy.
_ Reducing the official workday from eight to six hours.
_ Reducing the minimum voting age from 18 to 16.
_ Creating a fund to pay social security benefits for the first time to workers in the informal economy, such as maids and street vendors. |
Look at the bribery. Disgusting. Venezuela resisted it. It has proved it has a backbone. Mucho respecto para el pais de Venezuela. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
Now if he truly does accept the results and doesn't try to pull any BS, then I will have to give him credit.
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Why? The coward couldn't even reach for the diadem in the end. Maybe, like Caesar, his love for himself and popularity consumed him so much that he couldn't bear to live without the legitimacy of an elected throne.
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And if that is the case, so much the better by the looks of things. Or perhaps his grip on power isn't as firm as it might seem. Perhaps there are other players that prevented him from being able to shift the election in his favor. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Perhaps there are other players that prevented him from being able to shift the election in his favor. |
Do you even doubt it?
Countdown to Chavez blaming election loss on CIA plot...3...2... |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
Well, it seems that the Venezuelan electorate has staved off autocracy for now, at least.
Just one question:
Does anyone know how independent and free the judicial review process is in Venezuela? The courts might be Venezuela's only saving grace. |
probably not. From the NY Times article:
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| Recounts are allowed under Venezuelan law, but would have to be approved by the Supreme Court, which is controlled by Mr. Ch�vez�s supporters. |
Article |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
blade, I hope you're being intentionally obtuse there.
Gopher's point was Chavez's critics are across the political spectrum and not strictly in the USA (and its mainstream media). You seemed to be arguing with that cut and paste that the only big criticism of Mr. Chavez was from US mainstream media, which you think is some pawn of the us gov't or something along those lines.
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Where I have said that? I'll cut and paste as much as like thank you very much.
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| That Americans have a distorted view of Chavez? Wow, great insight there. |
No, that the US main stream media is extremely biased against anyone who challenges the US's power in South America, despite claiming that their news media is free and impartial. Also another point made was that Chavez has done an awful lot of good for the people in Venezuela, a fact most people on this tread seem totally unwilling to concede and who instead prefer to pretend President Chavez is only some sort of tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people.
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| I don't think anyone on this thread has made the claim that Chavez ever illegitimately took power. |
No but some people tried imply that Chavez wouldn't accept a No vote and that he might try and rig the election in his favour. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:32 am Post subject: |
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High oil prices have done more for the people of Venezuela than Chavez could possibly do with his Chumpsky regurgitations and neo-Marxist idiocy.
I congratulate the people of Venezuela for taking a step back from the brink yesterday.
Too bad the 16 year-olds will have to wait a few more years to vote for their 6-hour workdays. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
No, that the US main stream media is extremely biased against anyone who challenges the US's power in South America, despite claiming that their news media is free and impartial. Also another point made was that Chavez has done an awful lot of good for the people in Venezuela, a fact most people on this tread seem totally unwilling to concede and who instead prefer to pretend President Chavez is only some sort of tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people.
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| I don't think anyone on this thread has made the claim that Chavez ever illegitimately took power. |
No but some people tried imply that Chavez wouldn't accept a No vote and that he might try and rig the election in his favour. |
High oil prices have done more for Venezuela than anything Chavez has done. Remember that his 'generous' social welfare programs are pegged to US demand for oil. That demand recedes, Chavez will be in al lot of trouble.
The reason many people here think that Chavez is a tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people is because Chavez is a tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people. Socialism enslaves citizens to their government; it makes them dependent on Chavez. There is very little liberty in Venezuela. Hence the people are slaves. A liberal independent citizenry of Venezuela with a free market economy is the best thing Chavez could do for his country.
Venezuela might be called a democracy, but it is certainly not a free country. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Shrug.
A lot can still happen between now and 2012. My estimate is that Chavez will find a way to "pass" these proposals between now and then. Many continue to believe that Chavez will occupy that office for the rest of his life. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
blade, I hope you're being intentionally obtuse there.
Gopher's point was Chavez's critics are across the political spectrum and not strictly in the USA (and its mainstream media). You seemed to be arguing with that cut and paste that the only big criticism of Mr. Chavez was from US mainstream media, which you think is some pawn of the us gov't or something along those lines.
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Where I have said that? I'll cut and paste as much as like thank you very much.
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| That Americans have a distorted view of Chavez? Wow, great insight there. |
No, that the US main stream media is extremely biased against anyone who challenges the US's power in South America, despite claiming that their news media is free and impartial. Also another point made was that Chavez has done an awful lot of good for the people in Venezuela, a fact most people on this tread seem totally unwilling to concede and who instead prefer to pretend President Chavez is only some sort of tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people.
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| I don't think anyone on this thread has made the claim that Chavez ever illegitimately took power. |
No but some people tried imply that Chavez wouldn't accept a No vote and that he might try and rig the election in his favour. |
1. I wasn't criticizing your cut and paste, just didn't understand what your point was. You have clarified your position now, thanks.
2. I didn't imply Chavez wouldn't accept it, i clearly stated it. I obviously was wrong in my prediction. Looks like Chavez doesn't have as much power as I thought he did. That's the good part of this news. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
High oil prices have done more for Venezuela than anything Chavez has done. |
Chavez could have done what his predecessors did and to give most of the wealth to his cronies.
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Remember that his 'generous' social welfare programs are pegged to US demand for oil. |
You mean world demand don't you?
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That demand recedes, Chavez will be in al lot of trouble. |
You left out the word 'IF' and it's a pretty big if seeing as the US or most other countries don't look like they'll be giving up the use of oil anytime soon.
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The reason many people here think that Chavez is a tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people is because Chavez is a tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people. |
Sure he is and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
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Socialism enslaves citizens to their government; it makes them dependent on Chavez. There is very little liberty in Venezuela. Hence the people are slaves. |
Yet people in Venezuela have the option of kicking out Chavez mid way through his term of office if they wish. Can the same be said about the US? No.
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A liberal independent citizenry of Venezuela with a free market economy is the best thing Chavez could do for his country. |
The opposition had a great plan a few years back to do what you propose by selling off the nations oil wealth to private investors. Capital idea was it not seeing oil as prices were finally recovering.
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Venezuela might be called a democracy, but it is certainly not a free country. |
Well at least you admit it's a democracy  |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
1. I wasn't criticizing your cut and paste, just didn't understand what your point was. You have clarified your position now, thanks.
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Okay sorry I didn't make myself clear enough earlier
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2. I didn't imply Chavez wouldn't accept it, i clearly stated it. I obviously was wrong in my prediction. Looks like Chavez doesn't have as much power as I thought he did. That's the good part of this news. |
You didn't but I think others did. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
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Socialism enslaves citizens to their government; it makes them dependent on Chavez. There is very little liberty in Venezuela. Hence the people are slaves. |
Yet people in Venezuela have the option of kicking out Chavez mid way through his term of office if they wish. Can the same be said about the US? No. |
Are the defining aspects of Socialism and slavery being able to hold a special election to get rid of the Executive power?
No, it isn't.
You seem to be confusing economic freedom with constitutional process. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
High oil prices have done more for Venezuela than anything Chavez has done. |
Chavez could have done what his predecessors did and to give most of the wealth to his cronies.
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Chavez could also stop trying to buy Russian migs, strengthing his military and stop buying/bribing influence from his neighbors. Chavez has helped out a lot of his friends in the military.
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You mean world demand don't you?
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No, I mean US demand. US demand provides for more than 60% of Venezuelan oil supplies. This essentially makes the US market a monopsony as far as Venezuela is concerned.
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| You left out the word 'IF' and it's a pretty big if seeing as the US or most other countries don't look like they'll be giving up the use of oil anytime soon. |
No, I mean when. This idea is based off of elasticity of demand. In the short run, not much will change since the US market depends on oil. However, in the long run, as newer
technologies are developed, the demand for oil will go down. When demand falls, so will the value of oil. As value for oil decreases, Chavez and his lavish social welfare programs will be in a lot of trouble. Oil demand is highly inelastic in the short-run, but it gains elasticity in the long-run.
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The reason many people here think that Chavez is a tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people is because Chavez is a tin pot dictator hell bent on enslaving his people.
Sure he is and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
Quote:
Socialism enslaves citizens to their government; it makes them dependent on Chavez. There is very little liberty in Venezuela. Hence the people are slaves.
Yet people in Venezuela have the option of kicking out Chavez mid way through his term of office if they wish. Can the same be said about the US? No.
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No, my point is that while there is democracy, there is no Liberty. You are confusing the two. The UAE has an autocratic government, but its people are free. Venezuela is a democracy, but its people are not free; they are dependent on Chavez.
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Quote:
A liberal independent citizenry of Venezuela with a free market economy is the best thing Chavez could do for his country.
The opposition had a great plan a few years back to do what you propose by selling off the nations oil wealth to private investors. Capital idea was it not seeing oil as prices were finally recovering.
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Precisely, nationalizing the oil industry in Venezuela has come at a huge opportunity cost(analogous to economic cost). There would have been greater competition, greater innovation, more jobs and more wealth that everyday Venezuelans could enjoy. Moreover, there would have been greater diversification so when the oil bubble pops, the economy would have something to fall back on. Of course, this is a liberal society, I'm describing.
Question: What country is more prepared for a drop in the price of oil: Venezuela or the UAE?
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Venezuela might be called a democracy, but it is certainly not a free country.
Well at least you admit it's a democracy Very Happy |
Yet there is little Liberty in Venezuela  |
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crazy_arcade
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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This may be a bit off topic.
However, I can't understand why these things are so black and white.
The Chavez experiment has been very interesting. I don't see why progressive socialism and liberal democracy can't co-exist. Scandinavia has no problems balancing the two.
South America has always had such a volatile and confused history. The area has so much wealth potential, it should be one of the richest areas of the world, not a crime ridden backwater. There's a lot of people that feel like Chaves and there's a large reason why he has a lot of support. In capitalism, one of the main ideas is that the wealth will, for lack of a better term, flow down (or maybe trickle) from the top echelons of society to the middle and lower echelons. This has never happened.
Maybe Chavez's experiment will work, maybe it won't. He's too extreme in his rhetoric for me but it certainly is interesting to watch. |
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