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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Billy Pilgrim wrote: |
| Because just because you have a viewpoint doesn't mean it deserves to be taught. Christianity tells us we should get married and be monogamous |
That is morality. I was not suggesting morality be taught, but creationism.
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| If creationism must be taught in school, than it logically follows that evolution MUST be taught in churches, no? |
But evolutionism isn't really science, just theory...one interpretation of what may have happened in history. If anyone follows the debate and evidence in detail (which extremely few do, because they are brainwashed into a mass culture), then it becomes obvious that a powerful cabal of atheists have steamrolled over everything else and pulled the wool for a long time.
If it was the case that the vast majority of people in the culture believed evolution, then you might have a case for only evolution being taught. But fact is in the US, a huge % of the population is christian. Teaching creationism alongside evolution becomes an accurate reflection of that culture.
yes, parts of creationism rely on faith, which you can then classify as religion. But even so, the cientific evidence when examined objectively and without bias points to creationism more than it does evolution. It is societal factors that force people to blindly follow evolution, not the evidence itself. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| I don't remember being taught evolution in R.E. and nor should I have been. |
JMO, I don't understand what your stand is, and I am genuinely curious.
It seems that you think that science should continue to teach Evolution and religion should continue to teach Creation.
Am I right?
If so, does that mean that you hold both beliefs, but in two different compartments?
As for myself, I would find it difficult to say what religious institutions should or should not do, because I am not certain that relgious institutions should even exist. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| It is societal factors that force people to blindly follow evolution, not the evidence itself. |
So why do so many scientists from different societal and religious backgrounds accept the Darwinian theory of evolution. While your theory rarely enjoys popularity outside of evangelical Christian circles(which in themselves are 'societal')?
Junior, you've had your stage no-one believes dinosaurs crapped into buckets. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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hardly.
chimps are smarter at certain things than humans.
Birds are smarter at flying and travelling vast distances without the aid of technology.
dogs have a far better sense of smell than humans.
and so? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| But evolutionism isn't really science, just theory...one interpretation of what may have happened in history. |
This alone shows you have no idea what the term Scientific Theory means. |
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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Billy Pilgrim wrote: |
| Because just because you have a viewpoint doesn't mean it deserves to be taught. Christianity tells us we should get married and be monogamous |
That is morality. I was not suggesting morality be taught, but creationism.
| Quote: |
| If creationism must be taught in school, than it logically follows that evolution MUST be taught in churches, no? |
But evolutionism isn't really science, just theory...one interpretation of what may have happened in history. If anyone follows the debate and evidence in detail (which extremely few do, because they are brainwashed into a mass culture), then it becomes obvious that a powerful cabal of atheists have steamrolled over everything else and pulled the wool for a long time.
If it was the case that the vast majority of people in the culture believed evolution, then you might have a case for only evolution being taught. But fact is in the US, a huge % of the population is christian. Teaching creationism alongside evolution becomes an accurate reflection of that culture.
yes, parts of creationism rely on faith, which you can then classify as religion. But even so, the cientific evidence when examined objectively and without bias points to creationism more than it does evolution. It is societal factors that force people to blindly follow evolution, not the evidence itself. |
Due to the bolded sentence above, it's clear that I'd have a much better chance of a intereting discussion on this issue with a brick wall.
Enjoy your paranoia and desperate double-standards. I'm sure God is proud of you. |
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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
hardly.
chimps are smarter at certain things than humans.
Birds are smarter at flying and travelling vast distances without the aid of technology.
dogs have a far better sense of smell than humans.
and so? |
Since when does "smarter" mean "more evolved"?
Your depth of ignorance is truly astonishing. |
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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
If it was the case that the vast majority of people in the culture believed evolution, then you might have a case for only evolution being taught. (a) But fact is in the US, a huge % of the population is christian. Teaching creationism alongside evolution becomes an accurate reflection of that culture.(b) |
(a) So we should only teach those things that everyone already believes? Jesus Christ, you've simplified the education system in one swoop!
(b) A huge percentage of the population masturbate. I can't wait to see this being taught in schools as an accurate reflection of our culture.
You are going in circles.
Basically, religion is NOT, and never will be, a science. Never, ever. So it does not belong in a science classroom. Evolution, despite whatever personal delusions you may hold about it, IS part of science, and thus belongs. What is so difficult about that?
To me, natural selection is the most obvious pattern in nature.
Genes control phenotypes = proven
Phenotypes control success in your environment = proven
Success in your environment means you have more children = proven
More offspring means more copies of those genes in the population = so damn obvious a two year old could comprehend it
Gene mutation = proven
I pity ANYONE who cannot understand these simple facts. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
But evolutionism isn't really science, just theory.. |
A theory is built upon a vast accumulation of scientific evidence. If you are calling something a theory, then you are clearly calling it science. You're saying "it's not a dog, it's just a poodle". You're trying to say something isn't something by using definitions that admit the truth. Geez. You're stupid.
| Quote: |
| one interpretation of what may have happened in history. |
If you have real scientific evidence, then offer it. It would seem in the Dover trial, ID argued that and failed. Miserably. Creationism argued that in Arkansas and failed. Miserably. Where's your science? Odd you bemoan evolution not being science but creationism and its child ID offer zippo. Nada. You yourself only seem to be capable of making claims.
http://www.gokorea.info/evo/evo.htm
71 at last count. No scientific evidence. I submit it's because you simply have none.
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| If anyone follows the debate and evidence in detail (which extremely few do, because they are brainwashed into a mass culture), then it becomes obvious that a powerful cabal of atheists have steamrolled over everything else and pulled the wool for a long time. |
Translation: because science looks at the same religious claims my pastor makes that I find amazingly compelling but science doesn't find them at all compelling or even approaching within a mile of good science, therefore there's a huge cabal.
You're back to repeating claim 69.
http://www.gokorea.info/evo/evo.htm#_Toc183851549 |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy Pilgrim wrote: |
Genes control phenotypes = proven
Phenotypes control success in your environment = proven
Success in your environment means you have more children = proven
More offspring means more copies of those genes in the population = so damn obvious a two year old could comprehend it
Gene mutation = proven
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What's pathetic is he was once trying to argue transposons ("jumping genes") explain how his post Noah populations could all recover from the worst possible genetic bottlenecks. Of course he has previously argued that mutations don't add new genetic information. The problem here is his transposons are one method by which the genome grows. Indeed, they are one method by which we can genetically demonstrate common descent, hence evolution. Of course, when he scores on his own goal (like calling evolution a theory, which admits it is science) he has to wave his hands around a lot and stick his head in a dark bucket like he never made the comment.
I showed him these lines of evidence, notably the one about transposon:
http://www.gokorea.info/evo/evo.htm#_Toc183851547
He claimed he didn't have a science background and couldn't possibly comment on it. Of course, this is a guy who has lectured us here that the weight of the scientific evidence supports creationism. Translation: the iota I understand supports creationism. The stuff I don't understand (99% of it) I just beg off.
Let's say none of us can possibly get to Korea and the only evidence we have of Korean culture and society is their movies. Junior's pastor tells him the bible says Koreans are stupid. If he doesn't believe himself that Koreans are all stupid, he can't be part of the pastor's special Jesus club. When you point out other Christians don't really read in their bibles the bit about Koreans are stupid, he argues they're not part of the true Jesus club. So, Junior watches D-War and concludes the evidence is solid. Koreans are stupid. When you try to show him better, intelligent Korean films, he claims he doesn't speak Korean, can't possibly determine if they represent examples of intelligence, but btw his opinion still stands. You then show him you can get them subtitled. Instead of watching them with subtitles, he looks for anti-Korean movie website and posts their opinions. Okay so you show him unbiased reviews of dozens of Korean movies, He googles to see if there's a negative review. If he finds none, he simply claims there's a cabal of movie reviewers in Thailand, India, Japan, and France to promote Korean movies as intelligent. Alternatively, he'll find positive reviews, cherry pick negative criticism, and then offer that. When you point out that the reviewer argues against his case in sum, he claims while we can trust the reviewer opinions on the negative aspects, he's fooling himself regarding the positive criticism. When you point out to him he's merely cherry picking, he agrees he is doing just that and there's nothing at all wrong with it. And finally, if he can't find what he's looking for he then simply makes up his own movie reviews and claims others have said it. He simply lies. And he claims to be Christian.
He's an utter and complete idiot.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IncognitoHFX
Joined: 06 May 2007
Location: Yeongtong, Suwon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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What the hell. You damn idiot.
Evolution is a scientific theory and it has been proven. Creationism is a religious "theory" which hasn't, and can not be proven. If you're teaching out of a science textbook, and it offers you both explanations to teach, then obviously you ignore the BS one and teach the science one.
Are you teaching at a Christian hagwon or something? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I had that come up in my class too. We were talking about the age of the earth / the universe etc, some kid told me that the earth was 6000 years old. I just avoided explaining things, said "ANYWAYYYY" very loudly and moved on to the next thing. |
If that came up in my class, I'd say "well, if that were true, a lot of basic physics would be entirely wrong and the Nintendo DS you play wouldn't work. So that you can play Nintendo DS seems to me that basic physics is correct and the world is about 4.5 billion years old." |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| IncognitoHFX wrote: |
What the hell. You damn idiot.
Evolution is a scientific theory and it has been proven. Creationism is a religious "theory" which hasn't, and can not be proven. If you're teaching out of a science textbook, and it offers you both explanations to teach, then obviously you ignore the BS one and teach the science one.
Are you teaching at a Christian hagwon or something? |
Read the previous posts. I teach at an SDA school and they told me to teach "their" view. However, I chose to teach (well..more like introduce) both theories.
No need to name call, anyone. Name calling is usually the sign of an unstable person who cannot control their emotions. To debate, you need a level head and need not be so narrow-minded. Just because you believe one thing doesn't mean someone else cannot believe in another. And, if they do believe in an idea that is different than yours, you shouldn't attempt to put them down for it, just because they don't share your personal views. Debate intelligently and like an adult, or get out. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| What are you trying to do, Cubanlord, reduce this whole forum down to about ten pages? |
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