| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I see you missed about 200 years in your history class. Look up the history of Bangladesh from 1757-1947. |
That, as someone has already pointed out, was colonization. |
And which one had a greater impact? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ummm...it wasn't just the British upper lip that got stiff. In 200 years a fair number of babies were born whose descendants were left behind when Britain could no longer rip off the locals.
I do enjoy the the hypocrisy of sending out the lower middle class to control the natives, but when the natives start coming 'home', it's a national crisis of identity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it were not for colonisation and the Empire Britain wouldn't be the place it is today and would not have as many immigrants nor be as far removed from organic British culture (whatever the *beep* that means) as Morrissey and others are getting at.
And the irony of this is that if Morrissey were party to this thread he would argue that the empire was a great and noble thing indeed and that entering onto foreign lands and ursurping their culture and way of life is fine and transcends morality and other codes of ethical practice.
But when the shoe is on other foot he doesn't like it. Funny that eh?
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I see you missed about 200 years in your history class. Look up the history of Bangladesh from 1757-1947. |
That, as someone has already pointed out, was colonization. |
And which one had a greater impact? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I see you missed about 200 years in your history class. Look up the history of Bangladesh from 1757-1947. |
That, as someone has already pointed out, was colonization. |
And which one had a greater impact? |
Well, I'd guess the British colonization had the greater impact, but what's your point? Just come out and make your point, if you have one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venus
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Near Seoul
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
If it were not for colonisation and the Empire Britain wouldn't be the place it is today and would not have as many immigrants nor be as far removed from organic British culture (whatever the *beep* that means) as Morrissey and others are getting at.
And the irony of this is that if Morrissey were party to this thread he would argue that the empire was a great and noble thing indeed and that entering onto foreign lands and ursurping their culture and way of life is fine and transcends morality and other codes of ethical practice.
But when the shoe is on other foot he doesn't like it. Funny that eh?
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I see you missed about 200 years in your history class. Look up the history of Bangladesh from 1757-1947. |
That, as someone has already pointed out, was colonization. |
And which one had a greater impact? |
|
Bloody hell Stiveg, from reading your posts on this topic I have to say you are well clued up on the history and demogrpahics of the UK's immigration history etc, very impressive mate.
I would dissagree that Morrissey is a racist though. I do not think he would make the claim that the Empire was noble and righteous etc... And I think also that there is nothing racist in saying that the 'character' or 'feeling' of England has changed a lot due to immigration and multiculturalism.
He may well not be rejudiced towards immigrants. But at the same time it IS POSSIBLE to hold that position and INNOCENTLY make the observation (it is a true and astute one that I myself can feel deeply comparing how I 'felt' or saw the country when I was a nipper compared to the feel of it now) that the character of the place has changed.
He comes accross more as a person who very much liked the national character of the country he grew up in to later on see that it had become confused, meaningless and stripped of any good virtues - NOT by the immigrants themselves, but due to poor management by his government.
His mistake and the reason he is being (I believe) taken out of context is that the way he said it 'sounds like' a complaint rather than an observaton. I would be interested to ask him whether or not having made the observation that the national character and identity has changed - whether or not he is opposed to the modern multiculturalism and is unsympathetic to the causes and events that bought it about and indeed the positive benefits (like the post ww2 rebuilding you mentioned) it bought to the nation. I highly doubt it.
One must also remember that in his songs such as 'National Front Disco' (a belter I might add...) he is not giving his OWN opinion or perspective. In the songwriting style of Dillon and other folkwriters, he is telling stories of characters he sees around him and finds moving or interesting. He is attempting to chronicle the times he lives in. Too many people (and I do not think you are one of them) fail to realise this simple fact and shout out 'oh he's a racist' when they here lines such as -
For the music that they constantly play
says nothing to me about my life
etc in 'Panic.'
No he was not neccesarilly singing about himself, rather dissafected, confused, displaced peoiple most likely from the generation before him that he saw around him and read about in the newspaper.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
venus - i dont think he is a racist mate (read the post before last) and I would whole heartedly agree on you 3rd and 4th paragraphs. People who have watched their communities change beyond all recognition are bound to have some resentful feelings.
and dont get me wrong the problems and issues arising from multiculturalism are indeed extensive especialy in the current political climate we are now in.
totally off topic but the Smiths are one of the last prominent British bands ever. Its a shame it ended the way it though. Regarding the lyric from 'Panic' I think he was mainly talking inr regards to the state of British music at the time |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venus
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Near Seoul
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
venus - i dont think he is a racist mate (read the post before last) and I would whole heartedly agree on you 3rd and 4th paragraphs. People who have watched their communities change beyond all recognition are bound to have some resentful feelings.
and dont get me wrong the problems and issues arising from multiculturalism are indeed extensive especialy in the current political climate we are now in.
totally off topic but the Smiths are one of the last prominent British bands ever. Its a shame it ended the way it though. Regarding the lyric from 'Panic' I think he was mainly talking inr regards to the state of British music at the time |
Yeah, true. Radiohead were okay, though a bit too 'teenagery.' and 'angsty' for my liking.... Same with Blur. Had the potental in some songs, but their music and lyrics never really 'grew up.'
Coldplay, Travis, Keane and the rest are immature shite that can go to hell. Especially Coldplay.. grrr.... My holiday to Thailand was almost ruined by hearing their shite every place I went....
I do like a bit of Belle and Sebastian though... too understated and subtle to become prominent in the sense that The Smiths were though... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
To be honest i dont listen to any of that indie stuff anymore m8 as it sounds so dated. I do like blur and radiohead however and think that people will still be buying their stuff in 10 years' time. of the current crop of bands i could only salvage coldpay tbh.
i like american stuff like alter bridge, audioslave and in a response to k pop played at my gym I have begun listening to gunsnroses again lol
| venus wrote: |
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
venus - i dont think he is a racist mate (read the post before last) and I would whole heartedly agree on you 3rd and 4th paragraphs. People who have watched their communities change beyond all recognition are bound to have some resentful feelings.
and dont get me wrong the problems and issues arising from multiculturalism are indeed extensive especialy in the current political climate we are now in.
totally off topic but the Smiths are one of the last prominent British bands ever. Its a shame it ended the way it though. Regarding the lyric from 'Panic' I think he was mainly talking inr regards to the state of British music at the time |
Yeah, true. Radiohead were okay, though a bit too 'teenagery.' and 'angsty' for my liking.... Same with Blur. Had the potental in some songs, but their music and lyrics never really 'grew up.'
Coldplay, Travis, Keane and the rest are immature *beep* that can go to hell. Especially Coldplay.. grrr.... My holiday to Thailand was almost ruined by hearing their *beep* every place I went....
I do like a bit of Belle and Sebastian though... too understated and subtle to become prominent in the sense that The Smiths were though... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
And the irony of this is that if Morrissey were party to this thread he would argue that the empire was a great and noble thing indeed and that entering onto foreign lands and ursurping their culture and way of life is fine and transcends morality and other codes of ethical practice.
|
| Quote: |
| venus - i dont think he is a racist mate |
I'm sorry but you do imply that Morrissey is a racist(rightly or wrongly) Your speculation about what Morrissey might argue if he was party to this thread is far more offensive and slanderous than stupid NME arguments about Morrissey being a Tory which started this debate (and most people on the thread obviously aren�t familiar with.
Can you find me a quote to support these allegations?
We all know that Morrissey longs for the old 'mythical' British life...tea on the green with vicar and all that rubbish� BUT to say he is pro Empire and all the negative things that it implies is ridiculous IMO. Is Britain losing this perhaps mythical identity? Yes! Is that a bad thing? Depends on you personal opinion.... Whilst Morrissey might not appreciate Reggae, who is anyone to say he doesn�t appreciate certain cultural aspects of post war immigration and align him with readers of 'the sun'. Lets ask ourselves anyway if the issue of culturally alien, non-conforming residents as well as citizens and their children snowballing? You bet.
It is clearly time that we all remove all these 1950-60s 'Empire coming home' crap from British immigration issues. Sure enough it happened but the current situation is a long way removed from that. (stevieg rightly mentions southern hemisphere immigration) Somalian ghettos in North London etc...
Morrissey is not an idiot and is clearly capable of discerning the difference just like you or I are. People have argued that he was a racist before. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.
At the root of this thread is an interview between Morrissey and some child where morrissey aired the same views held by centrist politicians across europe. and they try to paint him as a racist for it.
| Morrissey wrote: |
[T]he change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country. If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won't hear an English accent. You'll hear every accent under the sunapart from the British accent.
|
You cant argue with this. *edit* maybe you can just a little bit* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I said on page 2 that I didn�t think he was a racist. I also stated that I empathise with people who express similar feelings and sentiments. Maybe i implied wrongly that he is a racist through all the stuff on account of the empire stuff but I may of got carried away there (apologies). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
